PLATT:
<<
Both Elephant and Jonathan seem to agree that value (quality, morality) is
something conferred. By whom? Jonathan says by entities. It's always
been my interpretation of the MOQ that values are inherent in static
subjects and objects, that is, they exist independently of anyone or
anything conferring values on them. In other words, subjects and
objects are patterns of value in, of and by themselves without anyone
needing to think of or label them as such. Am I mistaken? Or have I run
into another *as if* conundrum?
>>
ROG:
Hi Platt!
Perhaps if I share my take on the issue, it can shed some light on at least
one other interpretation. I subscribe more to the position espoused by Ant.
I think the following excerpt from page 215 in the paperback of ZMM
illustrated this position well:
"Quality is not a thing. It is an event.... The very existence of subject
and object themselves is deduced from the Quality event. The Quality event
is the cause of the subjects and objects, which are then mistakenly presumed
to be the cause of Quality!"
The full meaning behind this and other passages never sank in though until I
read William James and the Zen philosopher Kitaro Nishida. To quote from An
Enquiry Into The Good, by Nishida:
"...dualistic understanding of experience has been presupposed even in
metaphysics....But in its real form experience is not such that first the
self exists and then it experiences something as an object. Rather the self
is also experienced....experience is more fundamental than the individual."
I understand and respect that most of the members of this forum subscribe to
various other interpretations, but perhaps you can appreciate why it is that
someone that interprets the philosophy of R.M. Pirsig in such a way would
have a bit of consternation with establishing "Aware atoms" as a fundamental
tenet of the MOQ. (Note I am concerned with it as a foundational
prerequisite, not as a literary approach to explain patterns of value).
I think we have explored the issues sufficiently, and as I stated earlier, I
respect the rest of your opinions. I hope this manages to portray mine.
Rog
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