To Jonathan >From Rog JONATHAN: I confess, that I too am a socialist - I've been that way inclined for as long as I can remember. ROG: Yea, I remember. I was hoping you would join in. (and I still need an explanation of Horse's Libertarian socialism, but I can't seem to incite him to join in to the depth I was hoping) JON: I value ideals like equal opportunity, equal rights etc., and I detest disparity of rights and opportunity. As far as I am concerned, the free market is fine as long as it doesn't produce too much disparity - AND THE SAME THING GOES FOR SOCIALISM. I also value the ideals of MAXIMIZING opportunity and rights - any economic system that stifles them is BAD in my book. ROG: Read "The Moral Sense" by J. Wilson. In it he clarifies research that shows that morals such as fairness, duty and sympathy have both biological and social aspects (nothing contradicts the MOQ btw). The interesting part for me was on research into peoples views of equality and fairness. He reveals how there is a spectrum of fairness that ranges from fairness of outcome to fairness of opportunity. Obviously there CAN be a huge variance between the two, and this creates a tension between people at different points on the spectrum, or even creates internal tension over competing values. (btw youngsters, women and collectivists are statistically more on the equal outcome side, while men and capitalists tend to go more the other way.) As I have already commented, I am a big opponent of exploitation in any shape. The fact is that gross disparities of power -- such as in free enterprise -- can result in an environment for exploitation. This needs to be carefully controlled with other social safeguards. On the other hand, socialist restrictions on maximizing success violates my sense of equal opportunity (rewards commensurate with contributions). In addition, in a central command economy, someone must be empowered to decide who gets how much. This is imo the biggest unchecked threat that can exist, and is very prone to exploitation. JON: I have no trouble in finding plenty of support in ZAMM and Lila for my pro-socialist bias. Roger, Platt and others have demonstrated that Pirsig's ideas can also coexist with their own socioeconomic views. HAD IT BEEN OTHERWISE, SOME OF US WOULD HAVE THROWN THE MOQ AWAY! ROG: The major issue to me is the sheer dynamicness of free enterprise. You have the ability to see an opportunity and immediately invest in it or get people to invest in your idea. You can shift from one industry to another as opportunity and tastes change. You can create what you want, when you want it (assuming you want to sufficiently). Socialism I see as static. It protects moribund old industries, attempts to control dynamic values from the imperfect position of central command, it is bureaucratic, resistant to change and resistant to sharing power with other than itself. (If you have not read Jared Diamonds' "Guns, Germs and Steel" you may miss what I am saying here. It deals with the danger to society of suppressing innovation) JON: I think that Pirsig's comments on Soviet Russia are close to the mark, but I don't think that makes him anti-socialist. The MoQ gives several reasons why Russia's socialist economy collapsed, but it also explains why Russia's new capitalist economy is disintegrating even faster!!! ROG: Russia is the poster child for imbalanced exploitation. Their enterprise is not free at all. I support well regulated free enterprise, not the mafia. JON: It's a pity that Diana has left us, because she made a very short penetrating statement on the very issue that has generated all these recent posts. ROG: Diana was the true master of the short and penetrating post. (and I bet you she IS READING THIS!!) JON: So in her absence, I'll let Diana have the last word: "On communism and capitalism. There is room for Dynamic quality in both systems if they are practised with care. . . ." ROG: Is there? This is kind of a no argument. She could just as well say "child abuse has room for DQ -- if practiced with care...." In the past 15 years I have seen an incredible disavowall of socialism in the US and in many emerging nations. I think economists, politicians and people in general are no longer as willing to keep betting on a losing horse. I suspect the jury is already in on this issue. On the other hand, I sure want people to experiment with new economic ideas. Rog MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
