Hello Jaap, MoQF'ers
Nature/Nurture is still lurking in here somewhere, just wanted to end
off this month by disagreeing with myself a bit:
Jaap wrote:
>Quality flows up and down (both ;-)) But flowing downward it's DQ, will it
>stimulate evolution and is it considered good, when it flows upward it's SQ
>(or influences of lower static patterns), will it bring degeneration and is
>it considered bad (or less-good).
and then,
>To answer the randomness, is it possible to say that SQ orriginates from
>chaos?
Yes, that sounds good, the inorganic layer has values (or rules) that
say that an electron should be somewhere in orbit around a nucleus,
and that a radioactive isotope should have a half-life of
such-and-such, but that's as detailed as they specify, thus allowing
"chaos" (which is what that level is oppressing?) to slip thru in the
form of the uncertainty of the position of an electron and the random
timing of radiation.
But this isn't DQ as I first said, it's simply the way that level
works, or it's SQ as you write.
The higher level is build upon this level, so of course it USES this
behavior in it workings as well. The biological level is dependant on
radiation to create mutations that evolve species for example.
But this isn't really the higher layer being influenced by lower
static patterns bring degeneration though, merely the day-to-day
interaction of a higher level implemented in a lower. I guess the
degeneration or immoral behavior and actual negative influence upward
is only when a lower level tries to change (what little it
understands of) a higher level. But even this might simply be the
day-to-day struggle of an underlying layer that doesn't understand
the objectives of the higher layer that's trying to dominate it.
So now I've personally gotten rid of my flow upward even though I started it!
On to my "levels can't change themselves without flow from above/below":
>Dennis wrote:
>(Tor)
> >> Of course this static pattern at the higher level was created by DQ
> >> originally, thereby the flow.
> >> This brings on the next question: Can a level actually experience DQ
> >> on it's own and change it's own SQ patterns? Perhaps not, that change
> >> must come from either above (Jaap and me now) or below (my
> >> quantum-spark idea).
> >>
>(Dennis)
> >I disagree here. The lower levels don't stop evolving because a new
> >level is born, social structures have changed immensely since the birth
> >of intellect, and biological evolution only seems stopped from our
> >limited perspective. Biologists often make the point that the human body
> >hasn't yet reach the end of its evolution toward the bipedal form.
> >Further changes are to be expected in the next milleniums (if we make it
> >this far, that is).
>Maybe I'm overlooking someting but I don't see how the flow idea -either
>from above or below- is in conflict whit the further evolution of lower
>levels. And then again, social structures have changed immensly and are
>still changing but when a critical quantity of people in a society has
>reached the intellectual level the society will change according to
>intellectual ideas. And human evolution is as all biological evolution
>influenced by partner choice, but since the social level is active this will
>influence the partner choise and so on.
Well I don't think I agree with Tor here :-)
In the same post where I wrote the above I also wrote about each
level having sub-levels of abstraction; Whilst the lowest sub-levels
perhaps only change due to some interaction with the level below
their trying to control/help, the higher abstractions work only with
the lower sub-levels within the same (main) level.
This combined with a less upward-flow euphoria from my part makes the
idea of a level being able to change it's SQ with DQ without outside
help back on track again...
Either way all levels can still evolve simultaneously, but Jaap's
above mention about how the higher levels are dominating biology are
very important (and interesting in the nature/nurture angle as well).
I don't think evolution is "working" anymore for humans since society
and intellect is what makes people survive to have offspring, not
inherited biological advantages.
So my summary is we've got chaos at the bottom letting thru enough
randomness to avoid determinism, levels of Static Quality Patterns,
each higher one implemented by the lower, thus allowing a reaction
(but not a Quality flow I think) up thru the levels.
Each level can change it's patterns with DQ or be influenced by an
above layer (which is seen as DQ).
Thanks for your time,
-tor
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
