Hi All >Phaedrus seem to be saying that by and large the Europeans valued order more >highly than freedom the Indians the reverse. > >Is this an accurate portrayal ? but more importantly just what is freedom? >How does the MoQ provide for it ? How it the same, different, than other >philosophies? etc. > >in other words...... > >What are the qualities of freedom? "To coerce a man is to deprive him of freedom - freedom from what? Almost every moralist in human history has praised freedom. Like happiness and goodness, like nature and reality, the meaning of this term is so porous that there is little interpretation that it seems able to resist" (Isaiah Berlin - Two Concepts of Liberty) Hmmm... A cacophony of questions on one of the most abused words in the English languauge. To say that Europeans value Order more than Freedom is far too sweeping as a statement. If this was the case then why did the early emigre's to the New World leave Europe in the first place. I think the context in which the above questions are set is misleading as it is not about Order and Freedom nor Europeans and Native Americans. It is a question of how much Order and Freedom are necessary in order to sustain different patterns and how well we are able to take advantage of what is on offer. Too much Order and patterns stagnate and die. Too much Freedom and the patterns fail to latch. Following Berlin's lead perhaps we should concentrate on a much reduced subset of the abused term: 1) Freedom from Interference - Negative freedom 2) Freedom to act - Positive freedom The first is the number of possibilities that exist and how relevant they are to different patterns - what you are or aren't prevented from doing. The second is more complicated and involves the idea of 'who and what is in control'. All sorts of doors may, technically, be open (Negative freedom) but it is a matter of what personal obstacles exist that may prevent you from acting freely. What possibilities exist (Negative freedom) are largely a matter of how oppressive, or otherwise, is the particular Social structure within which you exist (there may be many acting simultaneously - state, workplace, friends etc.) and what position you occupy in any particular part of the overall structure. It is often a feature of the numbers involved that dictate the degree of oppression, so that the larger the numbers that 'co-exist' the greater the number of rules that exist to control the conduct of that group. Who and what is in control (Positive freedom), within the context of Negative freedom may be complicated by all sorts of factors. How to deal with short-term gratification (sex, drugs and rock'n' roll) in relation to longer term goals (education, holding down a job etc.). Even if all restrictions are removed with regard to how we may behave pre-existing patterns will surely moderate the extent to which we will take advantage of so called new-found freedoms. It takes great effort of will to adapt to new patterns when old patterns are deeply ingrained. Within Negative Freedom there exists potential. Positive freedom is the ability to achieve that potential. Horse ------- End of forwarded message ------- MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
