I am just starting with Oz... I thought it was not a strongly typed language [Correct me if I am wrong] in fact I clearly remember from the book introduction that it was not ?
Here are some constructives observations... I really stumble upon on the oz language by sheer luck because I digged specifically for something like this for at least a month. >From a SEO stand point, the name OZ was a bad idea... And the Mozart name also... First of all it is not unique, second it already refers to quite popular terms... Maybe changing the name would be a great start ? I have a business and I have took on programming 10 years ago when I was fed up with our software problems... I started with C# and .net. We are based in Montreal (Quebec, Canada). We have a lot of governement help here for R&D. We did numerous R&D projects and got almost 90% of salaries back and 40% for consultants work (even foreigners). It would be great to create something building on the strenght of the OZ language and showcase it. Erlang has quite a following now and the syntax is a bit alien to a java or C programmer... Yet they attracted a lot of attention. So the question would be... What could we develop that would really blow people out of the water and show the true power of the Oz language and make it shine on the public place ? I may even be able to get R&D credit for students and or researchers here in Montreal. Mat 2011/4/14 <[email protected]> > Send mozart-users mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.gforge.info.ucl.ac.be/mailman/listinfo/mozart-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of mozart-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Ozma ([email protected]) > 2. Re: CUDA and GPU support (Peter Van Roy) > 3. Re: Ozma (Peter Van Roy) > 4. Re: CUDA and GPU support (Peter Van Roy) > 5. Re: Ozma (Peter Van Roy) > 6. Re: Ozma (Peter Van Roy) > 7. Re: CUDA and GPU support (Wacek Kusnierczyk) > 8. Re: CUDA and GPU support (Bruce Williams) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:25:07 -0400 (EDT) > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Ozma > To: "Mozart users" <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 > > For two years now I have taught Oz to a few (6 in all) advanced high school > students. All had at least a year's experience with Java programming. > > I myself had decades of experience with I've forgotten how many languages. > > So this is a sample of seven people who either are not very experienced or > have experience beyond the C/Java syntactic family that is so popular now. > I believe > most, if not all, of us would agree that a fair bit of the power of Oz lies > in > its syntax. > > As for people finding it more difficult to change syntax than to add > concepts, look > at the mathematics education they have gone through: very little syntactic > change > compared to conceptual change. I'm thinking syntax is akin to language and > language is what we use to understand concepts. > > J Adrian Zimmer > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Lyle Kopnicky" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:41am > To: "Mozart users" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Ozma > > > _________________________________________________________________________________ > mozart-users mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.mozart-oz.org/mailman/listinfo/mozart-usersOn Thu, Apr 14, 2011 > at 7:29 AM, Torsten Anders < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > On 14 Apr 2011, at 14:16, Peter Van Roy wrote: > > > we now have a master's student working on a new front-end for > > > Mozart. It will implement a new language called Ozma that is a > > > conservative extension of Scala implemented on top of the Mozart > > > emulator. You should know that Scala is making a lot of waves in the > > > Java community since it's easy to learn for Java programmers and more > > > powerful. Ozma will add all the expressiveness of Oz to Scala, like > > > declarative dataflow concurrency, lazy dataflow concurrency, and > > > multiagent dataflow programming. Ozma will bring the slogan > "functional > > > patterns are concurrency patterns" to Scala programmers. > > > > > > Is Ozma statically typed, as Scala? > > > > Interesting that syntax has such an impact. Is there some research that > > confirms that the issue is really the syntax and not the programming > > concepts? > > > > Hmm, I have mixed feelings about this. Kudos to those who want to spread > the wonderful concepts of Oz. But I also feel that a lot of the power of > the > language comes from its syntax. I am amazed that people are more allergic > to > a foreign syntax than to foreign computational paradigms. > > - Lyle > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:47:08 +0200 > From: Peter Van Roy <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: CUDA and GPU support > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 14/04/11 16:11, Waclaw Kusnierczyk wrote: > > On 04/14/2011 08:16 AM, Peter Van Roy wrote: > >> One of the things limiting the awareness of Oz is its unusual > >> syntax. We find that the syntax is ok for programming courses since > >> it is so different from other syntaxes that students are not biased. > >> But the syntax definitely hampers the widespread use of Oz. To fix > >> this problem, we now have a master's student working on a new > >> front-end for Mozart. It will implement a new language called Ozma > >> that is a conservative extension of Scala implemented on top of the > >> Mozart emulator. You should know that Scala is making a lot of waves > >> in the Java community since it's easy to learn for Java programmers > >> and more powerful. Ozma will add all the expressiveness of Oz to > >> Scala, like declarative dataflow concurrency, lazy dataflow > >> concurrency, and multiagent dataflow programming. Ozma will bring > >> the slogan "functional patterns are concurrency patterns" to Scala > >> programmers. > >> > > > > Very interesting. What's the timeline of this project? > > > > Best, > > Wacek > The report + software is due in June. > > Peter > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:53:05 +0200 > From: Peter Van Roy <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Ozma > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 14/04/11 16:42, Emre Sevinc wrote: > >> Is Ozma statically typed, as Scala? > >> > >> Interesting that syntax has such an impact. Is there some research that > confirms that the issue is really the syntax and not the programming > concepts? > > And this made me wonder what would happen if Oz targeted the JVM right > > from the start (and had Eclipse plug-ins, etc.). > > > > -- > > Emre Sevinç > This is not possible, unfortunately, because of the dataflow semantics > of Oz. There was an attempt to add dataflow concurrency to Java, called > FlowJava, and they had to modify the JVM to get acceptable performance. > > Peter > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:54:15 +0200 > From: Peter Van Roy <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: CUDA and GPU support > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 14/04/11 16:33, Torsten Anders wrote: > > On 14 Apr 2011, at 14:16, Peter Van Roy wrote: > >> You should know that Scala is making a lot of waves in the Java > community since it's easy to learn for Java programmers and more powerful. > > > > I think the fact that Scala is based on the JVM (gives access to all Java > libraries) plays a very important role for its success. > This is completely true. The point is that there is a whole set of > programmers who will immediately be able to start programming with Ozma, > without having the barrier of a new syntax. They will see the new > concepts in Ozma as very close to what they already know. > > Peter > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 22:25:00 +0200 > From: Peter Van Roy <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Ozma > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 14/04/11 16:29, Torsten Anders wrote: > > On 14 Apr 2011, at 14:16, Peter Van Roy wrote: > >> we now have a master's student working on a new front-end for > >> Mozart. It will implement a new language called Ozma that is a > >> conservative extension of Scala implemented on top of the Mozart > >> emulator. You should know that Scala is making a lot of waves in the > >> Java community since it's easy to learn for Java programmers and more > >> powerful. Ozma will add all the expressiveness of Oz to Scala, like > >> declarative dataflow concurrency, lazy dataflow concurrency, and > >> multiagent dataflow programming. Ozma will bring the slogan "functional > >> patterns are concurrency patterns" to Scala programmers. > > Is Ozma statically typed, as Scala? > Yes. It is supposed to be very close to Scala. It will do type > reconstruction like Scala, but it will compile to the Mozart emulator > (the Ozma compiler reuses the backend of the Oz compiler). > > Interesting that syntax has such an impact. Is there some research that > confirms that the issue is really the syntax and not the programming > concepts? > > > I don't know of any such research, I only have anecdotal evidence. > > Peter > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 22:29:57 +0200 > From: Peter Van Roy <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Ozma > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 14/04/11 18:25, [email protected] wrote: > > For two years now I have taught Oz to a few (6 in all) advanced high > school students. All had at least a year's experience with Java > programming. > > > > I myself had decades of experience with I've forgotten how many > languages. > > > > So this is a sample of seven people who either are not very experienced > or have experience beyond the C/Java syntactic family that is so popular > now. I believe > > most, if not all, of us would agree that a fair bit of the power of Oz > lies in > > its syntax. > Yes, syntax is important for Oz: it allows Oz to factorize its concepts > and keep them separate, so that multiparadigm programming actually works > in Oz. I.e., it's possible to program with a certain set of concepts > without being contaminated by the ones one doesn't want to use. That's > not possible in almost all other languages, and it's definitely not > possible in Java (where objects and state contaminate everything). > That's why we chose Scala and not Java as the base for Ozma. The Scala > designers already did a lot of hard work modifying the Java syntax to > cover both functional and object-oriented programming. Scala has a > somewhat different syntax than Java because of this, but it seems that > Java programmers can adapt to Scala syntax. > > As for people finding it more difficult to change syntax than to add > concepts, look > > at the mathematics education they have gone through: very little > syntactic change > > compared to conceptual change. I'm thinking syntax is akin to language > and language is what we use to understand concepts. > > > > J Adrian Zimmer > For programmers who were brought up in one syntax only (usually the > C/Java style), syntax is the same as semantics! The only way they can > learn new concepts is if the concepts are expressed with a syntax very > close to what they know. I would like these programmers to learn about > dataflow concurrency. > > Peter > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:12:53 -0500 > From: Wacek Kusnierczyk <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: CUDA and GPU support > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 4/14/11 1:47 PM, Peter Van Roy wrote: > > On 14/04/11 16:11, Waclaw Kusnierczyk wrote: > >> On 04/14/2011 08:16 AM, Peter Van Roy wrote: > >>> One of the things limiting the awareness of Oz is its unusual > >>> syntax. We find that the syntax is ok for programming courses since > >>> it is so different from other syntaxes that students are not > >>> biased. But the syntax definitely hampers the widespread use of > >>> Oz. To fix this problem, we now have a master's student working on > >>> a new front-end for Mozart. It will implement a new language called > >>> Ozma that is a conservative extension of Scala implemented on top of > >>> the Mozart emulator. You should know that Scala is making a lot of > >>> waves in the Java community since it's easy to learn for Java > >>> programmers and more powerful. Ozma will add all the expressiveness > >>> of Oz to Scala, like declarative dataflow concurrency, lazy dataflow > >>> concurrency, and multiagent dataflow programming. Ozma will bring > >>> the slogan "functional patterns are concurrency patterns" to Scala > >>> programmers. > >>> > >> > >> Very interesting. What's the timeline of this project? > >> > >> Best, > >> Wacek > > The report + software is due in June. > That's pretty close. Thanks. > > vQ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:36:42 -0700 > From: Bruce Williams <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: CUDA and GPU support > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Torsten Anders > <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 14 Apr 2011, at 14:16, Peter Van Roy wrote: > >> You should know that Scala is making a lot of waves in the Java > community since it's easy to learn for Java programmers and more powerful. > > > > > > I think the fact that Scala is based on the JVM (gives access to all Java > libraries) plays a very important role for its  success. > > > > Best wishes, > > Torsten > > > > +1 > > Bruce Williams > > -- > > Dr Torsten Anders > > Course Leader, Music Technology > > University of Bedfordshire > > Park Square, Room A315 > > http://strasheela.sourceforge.net > > http://www.torsten-anders.de > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________ > > mozart-users mailing list                > [email protected] > > http://www.mozart-oz.org/mailman/listinfo/mozart-users > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > mozart-users mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.gforge.info.ucl.ac.be/mailman/listinfo/mozart-users > > End of mozart-users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 5 > ******************************************* >
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