Hi to all. Thanks for the links Stewart ! This is really cool... Have you heard about this :
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/04/robot-scientist-language/ <http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/04/robot-scientist-language/>I have been following developments on this subject since the first time I heard about it. Have any of you heard of this before ? Also I have an interest in the following technology : http://www.missioncriticalit.com/odase.html <http://www.missioncriticalit.com/odase.html>Would mozart be a good fit for this kind of applications ? To Peter : I will have a look at the french courses. I am a native french speaker so I can give you feedback since I am beginning to learn about Oz. I am working with more than 15 privates high schools here in Montreal for my core business selling textbooks... Here is a profile of my business : http://list.canadianbusiness.com/rankings/profit100/2010/DisplayProfile2.aspx?profile=33 <http://list.canadianbusiness.com/rankings/profit100/2010/DisplayProfile2.aspx?profile=33>Would OZ be a good choice to implement a SIP server ? Do you have students or other that we could use to develop some of our projects ? Where are you located ? Best regards, 2011/4/15 <[email protected]> > Send mozart-users mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.gforge.info.ucl.ac.be/mailman/listinfo/mozart-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of mozart-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. A possible way to increase community support (stewart mackenzie) > 2. Re: Ozma (Marko Zerdin) > 3. Re: Ozma (Marko Zerdin) > 4. Re: mozart-users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 5 (Peter Van Roy) > 5. Re: Ozma (Peter Van Roy) > 6. Re: Ozma (Peter Van Roy) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:53:43 +0800 > From: stewart mackenzie <[email protected]> > Subject: A possible way to increase community support > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi all, > > If we wish to build support for the language I think we should try > many different ways. > This suggestion might sound a bit far out, controversial with a splash > of activism thrown in. > Just what every University Professor ordered. > > Mozart Oz I believe is the only language that has the ability to > easily implement the software proposed > by the movement called the venus project > (http://thevenusproject.com/), This movement has a following (last > counted) 500 000 people. > They are actively engaging the scientific community assisting them > with projects by donating spare CPU cycles to BOINC > (http://boinc.berkeley.edu/) They have radio shows and have regular > (large) meetings around the world. > They have created windowfarms.org on the whole they seem a lively bunch. > > The software they wish to create is revolutionary and requires the > greatest minds to build. > > A very good intro is this movie > > http://www.youtube.com/v/4Z9WVZddH9w?autoplay=1&rel=0&enablejsapi=1&playerapiid=ytplayer > be warned it is over 2 hours long. > > I believe this community will rally behind a programming language with > patches and bit rot fixes if the language forms the foundation of > of their resource based economy. > > If we build a prototype and that gets successfully rolled out and used > by the community, we could send a call for patches signal out to this > community. > I believe they would respond. > > Kind regards > Stewart > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 21:09:11 +0100 > From: Marko Zerdin <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Ozma > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > I also find this surprising. I've been programming for almost three > decades in many languages, and I find several elements of Oz syntax very > empowering. I've done some work in Scala as well and like the language > very much, in particular its ability to create DSLs in such a > straightforward. It would be interesting to see how examples from CTM > translate to Ozma, as that would really give us an appreciation of how > much expressiveness is lost in translation. Maybe we could also think > about the elements of Oz syntax that we find particularly expressive and > empowering when working with Oz to at least try to make sure those don't > get lost. > > Marko > > > On 14/04/2011 17:25, [email protected] wrote: > > For two years now I have taught Oz to a few (6 in all) advanced high > school students. All had at least a year's experience with Java > programming. > > > > I myself had decades of experience with I've forgotten how many > languages. > > > > So this is a sample of seven people who either are not very experienced > or have experience beyond the C/Java syntactic family that is so popular > now. I believe > > most, if not all, of us would agree that a fair bit of the power of Oz > lies in > > its syntax. > > > > As for people finding it more difficult to change syntax than to add > concepts, look > > at the mathematics education they have gone through: very little > syntactic change > > compared to conceptual change. I'm thinking syntax is akin to language > and language is what we use to understand concepts. > > > > J Adrian Zimmer > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Lyle Kopnicky" <[email protected]> > > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:41am > > To: "Mozart users" <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: Ozma > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________ > > mozart-users mailing list > [email protected] > > http://www.mozart-oz.org/mailman/listinfo/mozart-usersOn Thu, Apr 14, > 2011 at 7:29 AM, Torsten Anders < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> On 14 Apr 2011, at 14:16, Peter Van Roy wrote: > >>> we now have a master's student working on a new front-end for > >>> Mozart. It will implement a new language called Ozma that is a > >>> conservative extension of Scala implemented on top of the Mozart > >>> emulator. You should know that Scala is making a lot of waves in the > >>> Java community since it's easy to learn for Java programmers and more > >>> powerful. Ozma will add all the expressiveness of Oz to Scala, like > >>> declarative dataflow concurrency, lazy dataflow concurrency, and > >>> multiagent dataflow programming. Ozma will bring the slogan > "functional > >>> patterns are concurrency patterns" to Scala programmers. > >> > >> Is Ozma statically typed, as Scala? > >> > >> Interesting that syntax has such an impact. Is there some research that > >> confirms that the issue is really the syntax and not the programming > >> concepts? > >> > > Hmm, I have mixed feelings about this. Kudos to those who want to spread > > the wonderful concepts of Oz. But I also feel that a lot of the power of > the > > language comes from its syntax. I am amazed that people are more allergic > to > > a foreign syntax than to foreign computational paradigms. > > > > - Lyle > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________ > > mozart-users mailing list > [email protected] > > http://www.mozart-oz.org/mailman/listinfo/mozart-users > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 21:11:19 +0100 > From: Marko Zerdin <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Ozma > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On 14/04/2011 19:53, Peter Van Roy wrote: > > This is not possible, unfortunately, because of the dataflow semantics > > of Oz. There was an attempt to add dataflow concurrency to Java, > > called FlowJava, and they had to modify the JVM to get acceptable > > performance. > > > So what does this mean? Has this change been permanently incorporated in > the JVM, or does the problem still exist? If the latter, how are you > planning to get around this limitation for Ozma? > > Thanks, > > Marko > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:46:04 +0200 > From: Peter Van Roy <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: mozart-users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 5 > To: [email protected], Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 15/04/11 03:45, Mathieu Grondin wrote: > > I am just starting with Oz... I thought it was not a strongly typed > > language [Correct me if I am wrong] in fact I clearly remember from > > the book introduction that it was not ? > Oz is strongly typed but not statically typed. > > Here are some constructives observations... > > > > I really stumble upon on the oz language by sheer luck because I > > digged specifically for something like this for at least a month. > > > > From a SEO stand point, the name OZ was a bad idea... And the Mozart > > name also... First of all it is not unique, second it already refers > > to quite popular terms... Maybe changing the name would be a great start > ? > The name has existed for quite a long time already: the first version of > Oz appeared in the early 1990s ("DFKI Oz"), and the CTM book appeared in > 2004! (The language has gone from Oz 1 to Oz 2 to Oz 3, and Oz 3 has > gone through several versions up to version 1.4.0 now.) > > I have a business and I have took on programming 10 years ago when I > > was fed up with our software problems... I started with C# and .net. > > We are based in Montreal (Quebec, Canada). We have a lot of > > governement help here for R&D. We did numerous R&D projects and got > > almost 90% of salaries back and 40% for consultants work (even > > foreigners). > > > > It would be great to create something building on the strenght of the > > OZ language and showcase it. Erlang has quite a following now and the > > syntax is a bit alien to a java or C programmer... Yet they attracted > > a lot of attention. > > > > So the question would be... What could we develop that would really > > blow people out of the water and show the true power of the Oz > > language and make it shine on the public place ? > Yes, building something on the strengths of Oz is the way to go. Oz is > very good at lightweight concurrency (hundreds of thousands of dataflow > threads can live simultaneously) and distribution (network transparent > distribution that really works). Also, it has good symbolic calculation > abilities, support for constraint programming, and support for adaptive > GUIs: check out the FlexClock and Minesweeper applications (see the > Software section on pldc.info.ucl.ac.be). Beernet > (beernet.info.ucl.ac.be) is a state-of-the-art transactional key/value > store written in Oz. A distributed multi-agent system with hundreds of > thousands of intelligent agents could be written in Oz easily. > > Another thing that Oz is very good at is as a language for teaching > programming. We have made a prototype of a first-year course that > teaches concurrency, higher-order, distribution, and fault tolerance: > "Progressive enrichment of multiagent microworlds". The course material > is here (www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/micromondes.html), but it's still rough > and it's in French (for English, just use Google Translate). Somebody > could take this as a start and make a killer programming course for high > school students. > > Peter > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:55:42 +0200 > From: Peter Van Roy <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Ozma > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 14/04/11 22:11, Marko Zerdin wrote: > > On 14/04/2011 19:53, Peter Van Roy wrote: > >> This is not possible, unfortunately, because of the dataflow semantics > >> of Oz. There was an attempt to add dataflow concurrency to Java, > >> called FlowJava, and they had to modify the JVM to get acceptable > >> performance. > >> > > So what does this mean? Has this change been permanently incorporated in > > the JVM, or does the problem still exist? If the latter, how are you > > planning to get around this limitation for Ozma? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Marko > No, the problem still exists. The modification was done by the > designers of FlowJava for their own implementation. It seems nobody on > the Java side sees a strong reason for this modification. It would be > tough to track every new JVM release to modify it and convince people > they should replace their original JVMs. > > Ozma doesn't have this problem since it uses the Mozart emulator, not > the JVM. If Ozma can show Java people the usefulness of declarative > dataflow concurrency, then maybe the JVM would support it one day. > > Peter > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:39:48 +0200 > From: Peter Van Roy <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Ozma > To: Mozart users <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 14/04/11 22:09, Marko Zerdin wrote: > > Maybe we could also think > > about the elements of Oz syntax that we find particularly expressive and > > empowering when working with Oz to at least try to make sure those don't > > get lost. > > > > Marko > > > Please tell us what parts of Oz syntax are empowering for you! > > Peter > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > mozart-users mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.gforge.info.ucl.ac.be/mailman/listinfo/mozart-users > > End of mozart-users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 7 > ******************************************* >
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