One of the reasons that I am taking the time to participate in this dialog is that Ms. Gallagher's attitudes and arguments are ubiquitous in education and often not commonly shared by the general public (although they seem to be in Minneapolis). My perspectives are held by only a minuscule minority of educators, but I hope that you will take the time to consider them critically.
> Dorie Rae Gallagher wrote: > If they can't learn science perhaps they can learn color theory. But science may lead to more employment opportunities than color theory. > So - dissecting a frog or solving a math problem is going to > get someone a job too? I think not. Primary and secondary school biology and mathematics may not lead directly to jobs, but they may lead to professional careers. I think that one issue that is not being addressed here is that there are far more engineers and scientists than artists. Below are statistics from the U.S. Department of Labor (http://www.bls.gov/oco/home.htm). "Artists held about 149,000 jobs in 2002." More than half were self-employed. "In 2002 engineers held 1.5 million jobs." [I couldn't find a general statistic for scientists, but...] "Medical scientists, including epidemiologists, held about 62,000 jobs in 2002." "Biological scientists held about 75,000 jobs in 2002." "Chemists and materials scientists held about 91,000 jobs in 2002." "Environmental scientists and geoscientists held about 101,000 jobs in 2002." "Physicists and astronomers held about 14,000 jobs in 2002." "Mathematicians held about 2,900 jobs in 2002." The statistics for scientists and mathematicians may seem low because most of the positions require Ph.D.s. Of course the statistic for artists does not include all of support positions, but then again neither do the statistics for engineers and scientists. Not to mention all the other career positions that require a strong grasp of mathematics. > Common Michael that argument doesn't fly. Yes I learned color > theory and all the right science stuff - I'm much happier > doing this than when I was doing scientific research. Generally people are happier being employed than unemployed and happiness is not a necessary job attribute for the vast majority of people in the world, a living wage is. Sorry, I must have missed it. What kind of scientific research were you doing? Do you have an advanced degree in science? > You mentioned working in advertising - that is a for profit > business - so you are seeing one side jobs in the arts. > I work in the nonprofit arts world here in Minneapolis - > and whether artists make a living as fine artists (which some do) > or have to supplement with other income so what? I think that whether or not they can find jobs is an important consideration to the vast majority of young people, in spite of the public schools' focus in the Arts. > They are inspired individuals who also contribute to the community > be it in the arts, socially or financially. And some of them learned > here right in these very schools! I think that it is important to keep in mind the numbers of jobs available. It is wonderful that some people are inspired to contribute. I taught computer science for years at half of what I could have made. It's a personal choice. However, I believe that there are many people who work for a paycheck and look forward to the weekend's RV trip. > So they are not as left brained as someone like you - but that > doesn't make one better than the other. That is what you > are implying isn't it? "Left brained" is a popular misconception. What I am implying is that a medical scientist who creates a vaccine that saves the lives of 10,000 people has made a greater contribution than an artist who creates a painting that is viewed by a 1,000,000 people. I suppose that my viewpoint is biased after watching the arts community in Southern California being devastated by AIDS. > If you want facts (which you seem to like) contact the MN > Citizens for the Arts to get statistics about the arts - > financial impact, jobs, livability issues etc. it's pretty inpressive > stuff. If you want to support your argument why don't you supply the statistics? > I will totally agree with Dorie Rae that there are children who learn > differently - some will get turned on by science, some arts, etc. MAJOR POINT: I am simply arguing that students should have as many opportunities for learning and excelling in math and science in the MPS as they do in the arts. > I will agree with you that children have to unlearn selfishness - > hey, but here is where the arts do a great job!!!! They have to work > on a group project for example, share supplies and ideas. Voile - another > reason for the arts in our schools. Funny, most of the artists I've known work alone and almost all of the scientists I know work in teams. > Michael - it seems as though you view the schools as being a place > to teach and train children like cookie cutter shapes and NOT as > individuals with different needs and/or desires. School is also > about opportunities to have different experiences through > learning - a parent hopes that through this their child will > eventually find their muse. I don't understand how you could have possibly inferred this from what I've posted. What I have been arguing is that students need more choices and opportunities. Yours is a common type of attack used in education to discredit alternative viewpoints. > I moved to Minneapolis for the simple fact that is has one of > the best arts and cultural communities in the nation. I know my science > background changed my thinking - but my way isn't the only way. I > certainly wouldn't want it any other way in my daughter's > school - she loves science and math (she loves school) but she REALLY > loves the arts. Why squash that learning experience, which shows paths to > other aspects of learning ... It seems to me that you are the one advocating squashing. > Shall I talk about the artist residency we did at Winonah Community > School doing book arts to learn and improve math skills? It > was highly successful - I need say no more ... If you want to use this experience to support your position, yes, I think that you need to say more, but it would also be nice if you could provide some valid empirical evidence. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract ________________________________ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
