Hi Jim, I listened to the clips you posted links to, and I think the rhythm in the accompaniment has a lot to do with what makes the tune "danceable." With the exception of the solo guitar version, both other versions had that boom-chuck old-time groove going, with a reliable and easy-to-hear "chuck," on the offbeat. The fiddlers also leaned a little harder on the offbeat, which I think often makes tunes swing in a way that's better for dancing, regardless of whether they're old-time tunes or not. Anyway ... a great tune regardless of how it's played. Meg in Chicago
On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:00 PM jim saxe via Musicians < [email protected]> wrote: > Folks, > > A few years ago (Dec 28 2015), I posted a message here with Subject line > "Danceability of versions of the same tune" in which I called attention to > these two recordings of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2RI8FlwvQg > Foghorn Stringband > ~134 BPM > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ajfs8tcyrI > Lyman Enloe (and ???) > (Is this really a version of the "same" tune?) > ~131 BPM > > and contrasted them with this one > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AntWbzdq60 > Norman Blake > ~114 or 115 BPM > > I think that both the Foghorn version and the Lyman Enloe version are fine > examples of music for old-time squares and that they could also be good for > contras is played in similar style but at a lower tempo. But I said this > about the Blake version: > > > Again, the player is undeniably skilled. But somehow this > > rendition just doesn't do it for me as dance music. And I > > don't think the difference is just the slower tempo (about > > 115 B.P.M.) compared to the other two versions. > > At least one other list member explicitly agreed that the Blake version > was meant for listening, not dancing, and I don't think anyone offered a > contrary opinion. > > Recently, while going through some of my CDs, I realized that I had > another recording of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" played by Norman Blake, which I then > found is also on YouTube, here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rek6WqLfUVI > Norman Blake, Nancy Blake, James Bryan, Charlie Collins > ~114 BPM > > The tune is played five times through, with Norman Blake playing melody on > mandolin on rounds 1, 3, and 5 and fiddler James Bryan taking the melodic > lead on rounds 2 and 4 and > > While this one is at a similarly moderate tempo to the other Blake version > cited above, it immediately struck me as being in a more danceable style. > And that applies to the parts with mandolin lead as well as those with > fiddle lead, even though I generally prefer fiddle over plucked or strummed > instruments as the melodic lead for old-time square dance music. > > I invite other list members to play the recordings for yourselves and tell > me what you think. You might also want to try playing each with the > YouTube playback speed set to 1.25 (click the gear-shaped icon in the strip > along the bottom of the YouTube window),bringing the tempo into the low > 140s (which, to my taste, is about the top of the suitable tempo range for > traditional southern/western square dances, notwithstanding Cecil Sharp's > recommendation of tempos around 160 for the "running set"). > > Since I happen to have a variable-speed cd player as well as CD including > the last-cited recording, I've also been able to listen to it at an > intermediate tempo of about 130 BPM. At that tempo, it seemed quite > danceable, both in the parts with mandolin lead and those with fiddle lead. > > So what's behind the difference in danceability I'm hearing between > Blake's two renditions of the tune? I don't think it's the tempos, which > are nearly the same, with the second being, perhaps a shade slower the > first. And I don't think it has to do with Blake playing mandolin on the > second vs. (I think) guitar on the first. Do the backing musicians on the > second recording could have something to with it? Is it mostly, as I'm > inclined to think, that on the second recording Blake plays in a > less-ornamented, more "straight-ahead" style? (And if so, can someone with > more musical knowledge than I have describe what's going on in other terms > that might be informative to an aspiring dance musician?) Or do you think > the difference in danceability is entirely in my head, perhaps based on > what kind of mood I was in when I first heard each of the two recordings? > > Comments, anyone? > > --Jim > > P.S., > > The notes accompanying the CD with the second Blake recording cited above > attribute the tune "Sleepy Eyed Joe" to Ellis Hall. A search in the > Traditional Tune Archive > > https://tunearch.org/wiki/TTA > > gives surprisingly little information about the tune--just a mention of it > as being on the flip side of a 1952 recording of "My Little Home in West > Virginia" by Ellis Hall and Bill Addis. > > I've also discovered that there are several renditions of "Sleepy Eyed > Joe" in the Gordon McCann Ozarks Folk Music Collection hosted by Missouri > State University > > > https://digitalcollections.missouristate.edu/digital/collection/McCann/ > > but I haven't listened to them yet. The McCann collection looks like a > terrific resource, with 938 YouTube videos (or perhaps "YouTube audios' > would be a more accurate description) digitized from tapes of jam sessions, > fiddle contests, dances, interviews, etc. Lengths of the videos vary from > under 10 minutes (for ones made from on partially-used side of a tape) to > over three hours (for ones digitized from multiple tapes), but I'd guess > they averaging an hour of longer. While someone has put a lot of work into > writing descriptions that list the contents of these recordings (or at > least of many of them), and while there's a search facility to find > recordings based on those descriptions, the content listings don't include > start times for the various segments. So even when you've found a > recording, it can still take a while to work your way through it to the > particular selection you want to hear. > > --Jim > > On Dec 28, 2015, at 12:28 PM, James Saxe <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > A while ago, I was listening to a bunch of old-time music and > > trying to wrap my head around what makes some tunes--or some > > renditions of some tunes--seem (to me) more suitable for square > > and/or contra dancing than others. Of course I know about > > crooked tunes not working for phrased dances. I'm trying to > > get at more subtle issues. I've just been listening to three > > renditions of the "same" tune, and I wonder whether any of > > you will share my reactions and, perhaps, be better able to > > articulate the reasons for then than I am. > > > > One of the tunes I came across in my old-time listening binge > > was "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by the Foghorn Stringband on > > their album _Weiser Sunrise_. It immediately impressed me as > > a great square-dance tune. I also think it would be fime for > > contras if played in similar style but at a somewhat slower > > tempo. (Tempo on the recording is about 134 B.P.M.) > > > > As of the time I write this, the _Weiser Sunrise_ album, which > > had gone out of print for a while, seems to be available again. > > You can hear a sample of "Sleepy Eyed Joe"--once through the > > tune--here > > > > > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JAPC1H6?ie=UTF8&ref_=dm_ws_tlw_trk6 > > > > and the whole track here > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2RI8FlwvQg > > > > So you can listen for yourself and see if you agree with me. > > > > I also found a rendition of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by > > its composer, late Missouri fiddler Lyman Enloe (1906-1997); > [Note: I was apparently in error when I referred to Enloe as > the composer. See the other quoted message below.] > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ajfs8tcyrI > > > > [tempo about 131 B.P.M.] Lyman plays his composition with > > undeniable skill and, I think, in a quite danceable style. > > His name wasn't familiar to me before, but now that I've > > heard him, I'll be looking to buy some of his music. That > > said, there's still something about the Foghorn's version > > of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" that makes it seem (to me) even more > > danceable. > > > > And here's a third rendition of the tune, played by Norman > > Blake on solo guitar: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AntWbzdq60 > > > > Again, the player is undeniably skilled. But somehow this > > rendition just doesn't do it for me as dance music. And I > > don't think the difference is just the slower tempo (about > > 115 B.P.M.) compared to the other two versions. (When I > > play the Blake version with the YouTube speed control set > > to 1.25--thus raising the tempo into the low 140's--it > > sounds more driving, but it still seems to me that there's > > something lacking. Alas, I don't have means to play it at > > an intermediate tempo.) > > > > Thoughts, anyone? > > > > --Jim > > > On Dec 28, 2015, at 2:39 PM, James Saxe <[email protected]> wrote: > > Folks, > > > > In my previous message, I wrote: > > > >> I also found a rendition of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by > >> its composer, late Missouri fiddler Lyman Enloe ... > > > > After looking around some more, I find that "Sleepy Eyed Joe" > > appears to be traditional. It appears that I misread some > > reference to the tune *as played by* Lyman Enloe as attributing > > authorship. However this Google Books snippet of _Ozarks Fiddle > > Music_ > > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=2vm8OaHq_WcC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=%22sleepy+eyed+joe%22+enloe&source=bl&ots=vCRm4poWy-&sig=VfhzvlIp2s9LDMQWdz23EKU1G5A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6pYT3y__JAhUM9WMKHfoQCHIQ6AEIQDAH#v=onepage&q=%22sleepy%20eyed%20joe%22%20enloe&f=false > > > > gives notation for Enloe's version (which I still like almost as > > much as I like Foghorn's version) with the comment: > > > > Enloe does not remember where he learned this tune. He says > > he is aware that several different tunes have this title. ... > <snip> > > > _______________________________________________ > Musicians mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/musicians-sharedweight.net >
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