> On Sep 14, 2021, at 13:51 , Michael Thomas <m...@mtcc.com> wrote: > > > > On 9/14/21 1:06 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> >>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 12:58 , Michael Thomas <m...@mtcc.com >>> <mailto:m...@mtcc.com>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 9/14/21 5:37 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> 8+8 came MUCH later than that, and really wasn't ready for prime time. >>>> The reason we know that is that work was the basis of LISP and ILNP. Yes, >>>> standing on the shoulders of giants. And there certainly were poor design >>>> decisions in IPv6, bundling IPsec being one. But the idea that operators >>>> were ignored? Feh. >>>> >>> I wasn't there at actual meetings at the time but I find the notion that >>> operators were ignored pretty preposterous too. There was a significant >>> amount of bleed over between the two as I recall from going to Interop's. >>> What incentive do vendors have to ignore their customers? Vendors have >>> incentive to listen to customer requirements and abstract them to take into >>> account things can't see on the outside, but to actually give the finger to >>> them? And given how small the internet community was back while this was >>> happening, I find it even more unlikely. >>> >> >> You’d be surprised… Vendors often get well down a path before exposing >> enough information to the community to get the negative feedback their >> solution so richly deserves. At that point, they have rather strong >> incentives to push for the IETF adopting their solution over customer >> objections because of entrenched code-base and a desire not to go back and >> explain to management that the idea they’ve been working on for the last 6 >> months is stillborn. >> > But we're talking almost 30 years ago when the internet was tiny. And it's > not like operators were some fount of experience and wisdom back then: > everybody was making it up along the way including operators which barely > even existed back then. I mean, we're talking about the netcom days here. > That's why this stinks of revisionist history to me. >
I was there for parts of it. Even then, the vendors were entrenched in their views and dominated many of the conversations. Owen
