On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 06:54:23PM +0200, Tony Earnshaw wrote:
> > OK. As long as you don't let anybody in, it's OK. Now, the diff
> > between DROP and REJECT (either with ICMP or whatever) is that:
> > 
> > 1) You'll be exposed for OS finger print.
> 
> I'm exposed to it anyway, I can (and do use nmap), next:

So use stateful filtering, and drop TCP "new but not SYN" packets. It
won't make it impossible, but it'll be significantly more difficult.

> > 2) You'll use up your uplink bandwidth.
> 
> Not much, no. Next:

If you are getting SYN-flooded, all those RSTs you're throwing back will
eat some bandwidth.

> > 3) In some cases, you don't want to be polite and have the client
> >    break out of its waiting...
> 
> No. Port unreachable is port unreachable, reset is reset. Next:

He's not talking about the difference between an ICMP-port-unreachable
reply and a TCP-reset reply, smart guy. He's talking about responding to
something that came into a port that you don't wish to talk on, and
deciding whether you want to keep saying "no, I don't want to talk to
you, go away" (REJECT) versus dropping the packets on the floor,
pretending like nothing happened (DROP). And Joe's remark about
ICMP-port-unreachable being non-RFC compliant was correct, even if it
wasn't specifically in answer to your question.

> > 4) I've seen cases in the past that the spoofed syns had caused
> >    major traffic on the uplink: syn, reset, icmp(network unreach)
> >    are the minimum packet exchange, all on your uplink.
> 
> Convincing. But the b*gg*r knows I'm there anyway.

Not if you don't answer. If someone knocks on your door, and you don't
answer it, do they know you're there? No.

> How could he spoof syns? Apart from syn floods from others? What would
> he be doing with syns on UDP ports? What about my syn flood rule?

ICMP network unreachable would be the response to a RST you'd try to
throw back in response to that spoofed SYN - if the spoofed source IP
doesn't really exist anyplace, that's what you'll be getting back, if
you get anything at all. UDP doesn't have any concept of SYN, because
it's a connectionless datagram-oriented protocol. Once you're root (or
the equivalent), spoofing SYN packets is pretty easy (esp. if your
attacker's upstream routers are lax about what they allow through).

> Come off it Ramin, you can do better. I've seen your real venom, "bit
> buckets" and such for people who you don't like.

Sorry, but you need to more clearly phrase your questions. Don't blame
people who are trying to help for your wording - that's your own
problem.

-- 
Derrik Pates      |   Sysadmin, Douglas School   |    #linuxOS on EFnet
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |     District (dsdk12.net)    |    #linuxOS on OPN

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