Hi Yussi. What fight are you talking about? I think you are misunderstading, or maybe the fault is my bad english. I was not criticizing Jaromil, nor Alpt nor anybody. Also, I am not burned out. When did I say that? Or what did make you think so?
Jaromil, did I offend you with this email? Yussi is making me doubt about my way of expressing! :D --Luca On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Yussi <uc.dev.n...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ohh everyone is back here. > > Ok guys, chill, I get there's some old tensions on this project, most of > it is before "my time", so I don't know the details exactly. If you need > to fight shit off, just have a massive fight now and get it over with, > don't walk around in circles. > > There had been many many attempts since I got here by random people to > put ntk docs on many different platforms, do you remember the social > network one? :). > > It doesn't really matter which platform you choose, as long as we can > collate all of the random pieces of information scattered across the web > into one place, and we make it easy for new developers/testers to jump > right in, which at the moment is what keeps this project stalled. I > think a wiki is a good place to start (though the dyne wiki server is > terrible, we can live with it for now). > > About the mathematical model, I don't know what the problems are with > it, can someone elaborate? This is the internet goddamnit, and it's > 2013, if we need to prove/disprove a theorem we can ask for help from > actual mathematicians, we don't need to second guess. > > If the protocol specifications is mathematically unsound, we can change > it, just call the current specs v0.01. I think in the past several years > only Luca has contributed code, and a lot of it. Now one is trying to > deduct from the contributions you've made, I get it, to all intents and > purposes it's your baby. > > But this is not a 1 man job, this is a massive undertaking that requires > the skills and efforts of many extremely talented people, it might be > good enough for you to set up a network with your neighbour, it's not > enough to set up the foundations for the day the internet goes down. > > The code itself is good, it's clean, it's readable, you can make heads > and tails from it, but it has been very hard for me to get working with > it, because i don't know what it does, because vala is some obscure > language which wasn't exactly in my top 10 to master languages before > ntk, because there is no document which breaks down the code, and there > are no instructions on how to debug or test it. > > It's missing those critical comments at the top of every class which > says what this actually does, it has comments on why certain logical > steps are taken inside functions, but not what the function does (which > i admit it's usually easy to figure out from the name), not how it fits > into the rest, no overview. > > Put yourself in a position of someone who looks at the code for the > first time, someone with different coding style to yours, and who only > vaguely knows what the thing does. It's not easy contributing. > > For some reason, this list have attracted a lot of newbies, this isn't a > bad thing, as long as they are willing to get their hands dirty, at the > end of the day we want someday to make it so that the average cat in > r/awww can set up a node on his ipad. > > The world has changed since ntk was conceived, there are now many mesh > and darknet platforms preforming different tasks for different terrains, > most of what you needed ntk for you can already do with a combination of > other solutions. But there is still room for it in the eco system. > > The future is no longer the internet, the future is a messy coexistence > of different networks and protocols which is virtually unstandardised, > and ntk can fit right in there with bridging those. There are a lot of > people working on mesh tech now days, a lot of research is being put > into this, i recommend going into gnunet's related projects, there are > some real gems there. There are a lot of people who will help us out, > because we're not in competition with other nets, we can learn from them > things you couldn't have possibly known some 10 years ago. > > It's basically all over the place, and in one unreachable place at the > moment, we need at least a few people to have some running servers > connected permanently, so that when someone installs a new node he can > network with them, we need some sample services/igses. we need to put > the vala generated api docs online, we need to put the protocol > specifications into the wiki, we need to brutalize and scrutinize those > specs for problems, we need to make a list of what is implemented > already and what isn't, we need people to scrutinize and brutalize the > code, and the traffic it generates,we need a bug tracking system, we > need to do a ton of things if we want to kick some life back into this. > > and we cannot expect Luca to do it, there's no wonder he's burned out, > we cannot expect me to do it either, there is too much to do, the > foundations for collaboration isn't solid yet. > > For the wiki, I recommend taking a note or two from the awesome wm wiki, > they got contribution working very fluidly there. > > we can put a call out for help in reddit.com/r/darknetplan, but we have > to drop the egos and let bygones be bygones before we can expect anyone > to join. > > I hope i'm not pissing anyone off here, but fuck it, i don't mind > pissing people off, feel free to slug me off and call me a hypocrite, i > get the sense that we need to have a proper massive fight before we can > move on. > > On 18/05/13 09:21, Luca Dionisi wrote: > > Jaromil, > > I remember when you set up a wordpress installation. Then nobody went on > > shaping it. Maybe it was my fault, because I never gave the necessary > > input for what we should put on the site. During this time I made some > > (very little, tiny) experience on using wordpress, maybe I could try to > > set it up again. > > > > I understand that very few people have the knowledge and familiarity > > with mathematics that Alpt mastered. Anyhow, it seems to me that what > > Alpt already produced in terms of theoretical analysis and algorithm is > > enough to create a working prototype of the netsukuku network. In > > particular not all of the "features" prospected on the dissertation > > "scalable mesh networks and the address space balancing problem" dated > > 2010 are yet implemented in the software. > > This was to say that in my opinion, the netsukuku project could very > > well focus on the production of the network as it was designed years > > ago, although we do not have at the moment a person with an in-depth > > mastering of the mathematical models behind it. > > I believe that the features of such a network (no ISP needed, no central > > authority, self-forming, self-healing, highly scalable, fully routable, > > mesh network, based on current TCP/IP) are still worth, because other > > projects that you mention are pursuing different goals. > > > > If this is what we still are aiming to do, then we can go on discussing > > on what to write on the website. What do you think? > > > > --Luca > > > > > > On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Jaromil <jaro...@dyne.org > > <mailto:jaro...@dyne.org>> wrote: > > > > > > dear Luca, > > > > On Fri, 17 May 2013, Luca Dionisi wrote: > > > > > Hi Jaromil > > > I was wondering who the author of the update was. > > > > Alpt in person. We didn't heard from him since quite a while, then he > > asked access to the website to update it with those news. > > > > I must admit I have criticized his act alread, because it somehow > > ignores all the history of netsukuku in recent years, including your > > development and that of others. > > > > > Would you please elaborate what your plans are about the > netsukuku > > > project? > > > > I'm not directly involved, if not as a groupie and tester of the > first C > > implementation, which was also included in dyne:bolic 1. 13 years > ago! > > Other than that, I had theoretical excanges on the project since its > > early days with some of its members, but that's nothing that entitles > > me to making plans, nor I have the necessary knowledge and > comprehension > > of the mathematical models behind NTK. > > > > But well, Dyne.org is a non-profit foundation which, among other > things, > > cooperates to the creation of the Museo dell'Informatica Funzionante > and > > above all cares for preservation of IT history. As such, I've acted > upon > > the disappearance of the netsuku website back some years ago to keep > it > > online, a task on which Crash also helped, an early visionary and > > developer of netsukuku. Following that, as you might recall, I have > > offered to setup a new website if someone wanted to curate it, a > task on > > which we didn't follow up collectively. But at least I believe > nothing > > is lost.. > > > > As of now, the thing I feel like volunteering is to update the online > > documentation with the current status of Netsukuku: include its > history > > until now and all related projects, like your Vala implementation for > > instance. > > > > I think also the recent thread on similar mesh project is of interest > > here and we should have a page dedicated to that whose content we can > > collectively compile here, since this list already gather many > > interested experts. That can be on the wiki I guess. > > > > What do you think? > > > > ciao > > > > -- > > http://jaromil.dyne.org > > GPG: B2D9 9376 BFB2 60B7 601F 5B62 F6D3 FBD9 C2B6 8E39 > > _______________________________________________ > > Netsukuku mailing list > > Netsukuku@lists.dyne.org <mailto:Netsukuku@lists.dyne.org> > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netsukuku mailing list > > Netsukuku@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > _______________________________________________ > Netsukuku mailing list > Netsukuku@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku >
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