Felix, I am with Andreas on this one. While we can make these analogies, and they are intellectual fun that belongs on Nettime, but they have no practical consequence. The CNs would take Musk out in the public square and stone him if they could. The only reason they don't is because Trump, who they must obey even if he is wrong or even immoral, has said hands off. (This isn't to say that some CN stray dog might take a shot at Musk once he takes away Granny's disability.) The CNs have absolutely no knowledge of what the TBs think—not their concept of end of days, not their concept of redemption, nor their ideas on humans as fallen. TB philosophy does not exist in their world. There is no contradiction to resolve, because no contradiction is known to them. They know Musk is a tool of if not possessed by Satan. That's what they know. That's all they need to know. There is no resolving it. If they are in a coalition with Musk and the TBs, that's news to them. And probably to the TBs as well. That they are an accidental, unwitting coalition because of some common short-term goals, OK, I am all in on that, but it's in no way an ideologically or thematically based form of solidarity.
Now the Catholic Integralist/ CN coalition, that is real. It took almost 20 years to work it out. They have real contradictions that both sides recognize, and have to look past. End of days is a good example. But it's a theological difference. That kind of difference is in their world. Having arguments over scripture and doctrine—understood. Such processes make sense to them. Entertaining satanic beliefs does not. Just having curiosity about them is asking for trouble. You're letting Satan in the door. The CNs don't want to destroy the deep state. They want to capture all they can and only destroy what they can't. Big government is their way to power. It's how they plan to fight the money that is against them, and to use it as an enforcement tool for compulsory Christianity. They believe in regulation (just not environmental). Lots of it. No single myth of Trump exists for the CNs. Lance Wallnau started the Trump as Cyrus myth—an imperfect vessel who the Lord works through. But lots of CNs do not believe this. Millions believe he is the representative of God Himself here to shepherd His flock (especially after the assassination attempt). Some believe he is a barbarian doing the work a Christian cannot do on the material level. Some believe him to be a transactionalist they can deal with, and everyone can get what they want. It all depends what their prophet told them and what church they attend. They can live with contradictions in prophecy and revelation. That's in their world, and they can be negotiated or worked out in time. And Kieth, while I tend to stand with Ted on psychoanalyzing authoritarian elite as kind of a useless exercise (I tend to go with analyzing the social currents) I am amused. I think you have a book in there on contemporary forms of pleasure/cruelty. And finally, to Louis, the theological flaw is that violence and intolerance is not in the Gospel. The reason Christians don't have to do the crazy cruel acts commanded in the Old Testament is a new covenant was made with Jesus to follow his Word. For example, the new covenant excuses you from having to kill your unfaithful wife. When a "prophet" is making a doctrinal argument by exclusively going to the most violent chapters of the Old Testament (Deuteronomy, Numbers, Leviticus, etc.) with no reference to the teachings of Jesus, a good Christian theologian smells a rat. ________________________________ From: nettime-l <[email protected]> on behalf of Felix Stalder via nettime-l <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 1:35 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Cc: Felix Stalder <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <nettime> At Doge, AI faith has fully fused with Christian Nationalism On 3/30/25 12:52, Andreas Broeckmann via nettime-l wrote: > > What I'm suggesting is that the two phenomena, the two "faiths" perhaps > look similar, but they are significantly different on the theological/ > mythical level, and they probably also represent two quite different > forms of (potential) governance. (Moreover, the expression "faith in AI" > might in fact not be more than a metaphorical reference to the first, in > which case this 'comparison' would really be no more than a tautology.) > I think we should be careful not to jump to conclusions too easily, > conclusions based on such spurious comparisons which don't serve to > describe what drives the situation. I think it's worth distinguishing at least two aspects here. The first would be the strategic alignment between different social forces around a common goal: the destruction of the administrative state. And there are many more groups than just AI believers and CNs in the Trump camp. Let's not forget the old-school low-taxes, weak-labor-laws, and right-to-pollute fraction of the chamber of commerce types, or the grifters who want to access to the state's resources to prop up their schemes (say, bitcoin, military contracts, etc). For such an alliance to work, you don't need deep alignment of foundations. All you need is a way to make contradictions acceptable, like the CNs calling Trump, in many ways the embodiment of unchristian values, an "imperfect vessel". Case solved. I think the fully-fused in the original thread referred to this kind of alignment. And while I see Steve Kurtz's point about CN-types not being interested in AI, I think there are some deeper alignments nevertheless. Again, these are not alignments in foundations, more alignments in conclusions, arrived at on very different paths. Just not just that the only model of a supra-human intelligence we have is god [1], but also the view that humanity is a fallen (DN), or failed (AI) species, where only a small number of righteous people will survive the great rupture. Both think survival is in heaven, though probably in quite different versions of it. And if you have the idea of humans as fallen/failed, then the social welfare state is just prolonging the misery, and you just put all energies into preparing yourself for the inevitable rupture. For the AI maximalists, the effective altruists, it's a crime against humanity not to accelerate AI development, a moral failure not to work towards the maximal happiness of the maximal number of future consciousnesses (most if them not flesh-based). There is this clip from Hayao Miyazaki, founder of Ghibli Studio, making the rounds again, in which he calls AI an "insult to life itself" and remarks that this being end times in which "humans lost faith in their own abilities." I think this view of humans as deficient is also a strong connection between the two view. Again, coming from very different perspectives, but arriving at the same conclusion: we life in end times, and we know how to survive it. And for a political coalition, that is more than enough. [1] https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Ftechnology%2F2024%2Fnov%2F21%2Fdeus-in-machina-swiss-church-installs-ai-powered-jesus&data=05%7C02%7Csjkurtz%40buffalo.edu%7C9a71c54f4ef44c6c654708dd6fb16571%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638789529895156397%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hzZbJmvNPTIy1zBAqUlsRTo4EGRgK7rNOPfkXh3ORCo%3D&reserved=0<https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/nov/21/deus-in-machina-swiss-church-installs-ai-powered-jesus> -- | |||||||||||||||| https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffelix.openflows.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Csjkurtz%40buffalo.edu%7C9a71c54f4ef44c6c654708dd6fb16571%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638789529895177800%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ke8c7f9RQ1UqmoJyTVwPHXRPWZ7XvUAbS%2FyITrJs%2Bng%3D&reserved=0<http://felix.openflows.com/> | | |||||||||| https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftldr.nettime.org%2F%40festal&data=05%7C02%7Csjkurtz%40buffalo.edu%7C9a71c54f4ef44c6c654708dd6fb16571%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638789529895190883%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JC2FDws3t8zDaoQRj72pgh0ttjjiuNB%2BBdr20RbcVtM%3D&reserved=0<https://tldr.nettime.org/@festal> | | for secure communication, please use signal | -- # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nettime.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Csjkurtz%40buffalo.edu%7C9a71c54f4ef44c6c654708dd6fb16571%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638789529895204183%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZNzloOAggPdhfdKvUwednL0y5axKzyMGvgRLWMPBSa4%3D&reserved=0<https://www.nettime.org/> # contact: [email protected] -- # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: https://www.nettime.org # contact: [email protected]
