On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:12:43 -0800 David E. Fox disseminated the following:
> > try plopping a newbie in Debian. Nothing against Debian, I like > > Debian, all 14 discs of Debian, but a newbie is liable to give up and > > never touch Linux again for ten years before he even makes it past the > > base system installation > > Well, sure enough. But that's if you do a real debian based install -- > in many respects an "old fashioned" way to do things, now that there are > a lot of one-disk front ends that are far easier to install (kanotix, > knoppix, mepis, etc). They get you up and running fairly quickly, and > then yuu apt-get everything you can get your hands on :). > > Personally speaking, I might never attempt a "real" debian install, but > I had a rather serious foulup with Mandrake 10.1/cooker a month or so > ago, and I ended up switching to Mepis. In short, I'm very happy with > it.
Actually, installing Debian, even as I did it, over the 'Net with boot floppies,
is easier in some respects than the same on Mandrake. At least it knows where to
look for the packages by itself, right off the bat, unlike Mandrake. *And* it'll
run on older hardware. Mandrake simply would not work on the old clunker I
wanted to ressurect.
Apart from that, it was not much more difficult. The hardware detection is
obviously not there in the same way as something like Mandrake, and you have to
know how to partition your drive(s), but that's the only difference I could
find.
HUH? Sheez ...... All I surmise from your words, Joe, is a between the lines admission
of your abilities in Linux well *beyond* newbie level. First you say it is easy .... then
you admit that hardware detection is missing. You have lost sight that we are talking
about NEWBIES, not experienced installers. I have done text based installs (SCO years
ago), graphical installs, some successful, many not. Trust me ..... when something
does NOT work on an attempt to install, even power users migrating over from Windows
do NOT know what to do. The few may go further to research books, the Internet and
use discussion groups ----- but they are the exceptional ones(!). The majority will just
go away disillusioned, telling others Linux how it would not work for them, creating
more dissension than interest.
Understanding partitioning is by far something that few people who use personal computers
around the world understand at all. Is the object to get Linux adopted by only the
technically competent in the world .... or is it to make Linux manageable by *average*
computer users.
The bulk of users (by volume) have little or no knowledge of the inner doings of any
operating system and are glad to turn on their computer, take for granted that
it will run, and just use the applications that are their favorites, whether it is
browsing the Internet, sending email, writing a letter (all three the most common), listen
to music and so on. Many ... and I do mean many ..... either rely on a friend or relative
who is more knowledgeable when things go wrong ... or pay through the nose for
technical online help or (more likely) pay technicians at a computer store to "make
things work right".
For these typical users, you would end up spending the first half hour to answer their
first question of "What's partitioning anyway?". I have taught windows courses and
helped seniors in their homes to make their PC's easier to use for them and to train them
some. Some didn't even have a virus checker or kept them updated and even more didn't
understand paths ... and so would lose their files and not even know how to find them.
We all know that not knowing what you are doing with partitioning can be a dangerous
procedure that can totally screw up a computer ----> unless you are already quite
technically knowledgeable in the first place. I never consider this prime newbie stuff
and needs to be as transparent as possible of newcomers to Linux.
I downloaded all 7 disks of Debian and tried to install it. Soon I was confronted with
just a menu of activities .... and absolutely NO guide to tell me if there was a special
order to do them or if that mattered. At this point, you would see a flood of "average"
Windows or Mac users tuck in their tail and walk away. I went into each one in the
order presented, yet found I was asked very technical questions, a few that I had not
even heard of before.
I am sorry Joe, you have become so used to the ADVANCED knowledge level you
have that you have lost memory of what it was like when you did not know. Raw
Debian itself may be great once fully set up and especially good for POWER Linux
users because of its configurability but it is NOT a good Distro for newcomers as
a first experience into the world of Linux --- especially if they have to install it first.
Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad if more new computers were pre-loaded with Debian.
...... I gave up ........ and decided to try Mandrake again. It had also had bombed
on me. This time it worked ... including getting KDE going. The first try got the text
going ok but not a graphical interface. My Mandrake 10.0 is stable now. You may
wish to know that I have been a power user going back to pre DOS. Ten to Twelve
years ago I even took a series of SCO courses and helped care for a community
of over 30 people. I have no reason to just be boastful at all ---- but mention this
to show that even a person with a reasonable starting background can STILL
find Linux tremendously complex.
Once it's installed, you've got a functional desktop in terms of all the basics,
Exactly ---> once installed.
and Synaptic is very close to the Mandrake package manager in MCC, perhaps not as polished.
For all the people that dis' Debian, you've got to ask yourself: why is it,
We are not just trying to give Debian a bad name. Life is not just black or just white.
Debian maybe could be useable by newcomers AFTER it is installed. It can be a
nightmare for the uninitiated to install.
then, that distros like Knoppix (and all its variations), Mepis, and Xandros have chosen Debian as their base?
BECAUSE ...... they are recognitions of a need to taking Debian to a more
user friendly level. Simple as that. I doubt anyone is saying anything about
the internal stability, configurability and good structure of Debian itself, only
that it is, frankly, a techie's distro.
If any distro is likely to 'scare' a newbie, I'd wager it's Slackware or Gentoo,
certainly not Debian.
Could be. I have seen a lot of threads lately, though, that are encouraging on
Mepis, Knoppix, Mandrake and a few others that either require no install or have
easy, graphical, step by step installs with a lot of internal artificial intellligence
that protects the less techy crowd from difficult procedures and concepts.
This is supposed to be a NEWBIE list. If you want to encourage people
to start with Linux, not be quickly discouraged, continue to use it and rise to
the next level (beginning amateur?), you have to THINK like a newbie .....
not as the advanced experts you are. Some people can be highly competent
technically .... but poor and intolerant teachers unless they are willing to
apply a goodly measure of humility to the knowledge they have. This is the
first step toward being able to mentor others.
This makes me want to ask ---> do we have any criteria for the level of questions
that should be dealt with in a newbie list like this? At what level should a person
decide to shift to a more advanced list? The level of knowledge of those requesting
help I have noticed has been quite high (not just beginning level).
-- JoeHill / RLU #282046 / www.freeyourmachine.org
Bill Mudry
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