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You bring out good points, but you are still forgetting some thing. How are users going to get access to data that is not on a website or through a database application? Most users work on Word docs, or Excel spreadsheets, or heven forbid, a Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet. So, you would say use SAMBA on the Linux server, right? We all know how well NetBIOS scales in an Enterprise environment. I am not disagreeing with you that a Linux server would be a much better OS than a Microsoft server as a webserver or a MySQL or some other varient of the SQL language, or even Oracle. Most companies have started to look at Linux, as a different alternative to Unix, as most flavors of Unix are prepriatory and require the special hardware from the vendor (Solaris is the exception). BUT, you need to keep this in mind: It doesn't matter to most companies how much the application costs, until it starts to affect the end user. If a user cannot get access to data, your CTO or CIO will be getting phone calls from managers, and he/she will be raising hell. Now, if you can teach all of your end users how to get to data, then this world would be a perfect one, and you would be even richer than Bill Gates. You may have all of the techincal experience in the world, but if you don't know how end users REALLY work and operate, then you will fail. Because, having users complain and cause more of a problem by complaining to the wrong person, you will be looking for another job. Right now, I think a *NIX box would be a great web server or database server, but not a file and print server, nor a server that would be the equivelent to that of a Domain Controller. I'm pretty sure that there are other products out there that would bring this together, but how much is that going to cost? Most software vendors are charging more if not the same for a product that will "seamlessly integrate all of your OS's together." Step back and look at everything. Yes Microsoft has become and will always be a big player and one that will try to force their side of the house on everyone. But, other software vendors are trying to do the same. Maybe not by using a strong arm tatic, but rather chargin rediculous prices for thier software licenses. Now, I'm not saying that this applies to EVERY software company out there, but most of them that I know. I too am an MCSE, but I don't go around bosting about it. I have seen other MCSE's rehash books, but they have little to no real experience with the product. MOST, not all, MCSE's are pretty dumb and are probably the most arrogant people in the industry. Well, maybe those that are nothing but Linux guys. :) I am just like Josh, who started when there was just DOS, and you needed to know how the hardware works with the software. I guess, Microsoft is just trying to make their OS more "Admin Friendly". But, I guess only because by their teachings, they have made most MCSE's just "Ok. I just insert the CD, press ENTER, and the OS is installed. Great. I'm done, whats next?" This is appealing to those small businesses, but not the larger enterprise where security is at the top, if not the very top, of the list. Just my 2cents. Chris - -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Cory Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 4:52 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [newbie] MCSE and rebooting for IP changes You have very valid points regarding the simplicity of using linux, but think of this... how hard would it be to use linux if you had never used a Microsoft OS? Yes, linux can be rather difficult to use at times, but also take into account the abilities it provides. Yes, you can make a complicated device (ie: computer) and make it so a monkey can use it, but when the mouse breaks, or when he clicks on the icon and it doesn't work, what good is the monkey? I don't say that linux is the "Greatest" OS in the world... I honestly don't think that linux, in its current state, belongs on "the average end user" desktop by ANY MEANS!! But linux does belong in the server market. Most end users are idiots... flat out, plain and simple, don't bother contesting that point. The problem here is that windows OS'es give the user zero incentive or ability to learn more about what really goes on behind the scenes. Why cant I run a windows app from a command prompt and see the ongoings of the application in that console window even if I wanted to? It is unfortunate that you had to fork out thousands of dollars for something that you probably gained very little from just so that the "people who make things happen" don't scoff at you for not being a lemming like them. I got hired because I had a fresh, unbiased and INFORMED opinion on the computer industry as a whole. Honestly, if I could get mac OS X to run on PC Hardware, that would probably be my platform of choice. Linux is not EASY, but it is reliable, extremely scalable, cost effective in a server environment (not an end user environment though... think about training costs!), chocked full of features and supplemental programs after installation (what can you do with a system right after the installation of windows, prior to installation of 3rd party apps?), user friendly (actually tells you what went wrong, and possibly what you were doing at the time, not just "Error: OK") etc. etc. Is the fact that you actually have to THINK when using a computer a bad thing if it gives you all of these benefits? Right now, if we were to upgrade our network to the latest Microsoft everything, we would need ~$100,000 bare minimum... before we even discuss the time they pay us for to do it, and we don't even have 100 users!! The need to upgrade our servers is approaching rapidly, and is inevitable, so I have personally taken the initiative to implement a linux alternative that I intend to present to my superior when the time comes. Currently, my coworkers are hesitant to implement linux because all they know is Microsoft, but once they actually see the dollar signs on paper they will see the most effective way to solve the problem. As it stands, The estimated cost for a linux alternative is around $10,000 and that includes paying the staff to do it and I have also calculated 8 hours of technical support from mandrake as well! Now the problem with using linux as the server and windows as the clients is the FACT that Microsoft makes a blatant effort to make its products incompatible with other standards. Example: Microsofts "modified" java (which is illegal per license agreement from sun- inventors of jave), the new CIFS fiasco (MS must release info regarding CIFS to others FREELY as per the DOJ, but in their license agreement, it explicitly states that "The information contained in this, may be use freely, without royalty, EXCEPT if used under the GPL.", and their proprietary web server modules. How many sites have you seen that your non-internet explorer web browser wont display properly? Microsoft is not a standard, they are against standards because then everyone would be able to use an alternative without paying royalties to Microsoft. Anyhow, I hope that I have enlightened at least one person out there... Just be aware of what is really going on. Use the brain that you have to make a decision, not to follow, but to lead. Cory Grey Coastal Pacific Xpress www.cpx.ca (604) 575-0983 - -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [newbie] MCSE and rebooting for IP changes Hey, you don't have to reboot to change IPs anymore. <grin> I wish more of this M$ bashing energy was put into making linux a more viable solution. Here you have a MCSE (started with MS networking when I was 23) who is completely willing to switch to linux. I earned my MCSE to battle the "you're a dumb kid" comments and it worked. I back it up with years of experience from the DOS days where you needed to know things such as low-level formatting, IRQ's, etc. Most computer concepts and usage comes very easily to me. After stumbling with linux on and off I have to say that Microsoft has a good thing going. They have a total solution that works pretty well. 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