Hi Jack,
> On Oct 11, 2023, at 19:31, Jack Haverty via Nnagain > <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > A few days ago I made some comments about the idea of "educating" the > lawyers, politicians, and other smart, but not necessarily technically adept, > decision makers. Today I saw a news story about a recent FCC action, to > mandate "nutrition labels" on Internet services offered by ISPs: > > https://cordcuttersnews.com/fcc-says-comcast-spectrum-att-must-start-displaying-the-true-cost-and-speed-of-their-internet-service-starting-april-2024/ > > This struck me as anecdotal, but a good example of the need for education. > Although it's tempting and natural to look at existing infrastructures as > models for regulating a new one, IMHO the Internet does not work like the > Food/Agriculture infrastructure does. > > For example, the new mandates require ISPs to "label" their products with > "nutritional" data including "typical" latency, upload, and download speeds. > They have until April 2024 to figure it out. I've never encountered an ISP > who could answer such questions - even the ones I was involved in managing. > Marketing can of course create an answer, since "typical" is such a vague > term. Figuring out how to attach the physical label to their service product > may be a problem. [SM] There are typically several ways to skin this specific cat ;) One is e.g. for the regulator to supply their own reference platform against which the contractually agree upon rates/latency/random loss numbers are measured. In the EU the BEREC summarizes its recommendations e.g. here: https://www.berec.europa.eu/sites/default/files/files/document_register_store/2022/6/BoR_%2822%29_72_NN_regulatory_assessment_methodology_final.pdf where it is especially recommended to measure against servers outside of the ISP' networks... which makes a ton of sense for a product called internet access service, and not ISP-intranet access service ;) Reading this document makes it clear that perfect is the enemy of the good and/or achievable in this matter. > Such labels may not be very helpful to the end user struggling to find an ISP > that delivers the service needed for some interactive use (audio or video > conferencing, gaming, home automation, etc.) [SM] Sure. Now if the applicable law is amended to: a) allow the ISP to freely specify the rate numbers they promise to customers (in the different plans) b) actually hold them accountable to deliver on these promised rates the whole thing starts to make some sense... (In Germany, the only regulatory area where I looked close enough, the law gives end users the right to immediate cancelation or to reduce the payment to be in proportion to the ratio of achieved rate versus contracted rate). And all of the ISP essentially follow the law, none went bankrupt because of this or lost all of their customers as far as I know... The point is such a scheme, while conceptually a bit unclean, can actually work pretty well in practice. > Performance on the Internet depends on where the two endpoints are, the > physical path to get from one to the other, as well as the hardware, > software, current load, and other aspects of each endpoint, all outside the > ISPs' control or vision. Since the two endpoints can be on different ISPs, > perhaps requiring one or more additional internediate ISPs, specifying a > "typical" performance from all Points A to all Points B is even more > challenging. [SM] Sure, and since the product is internet access, ideally the test servers would be located all over the network in diverse ASs, but short of such an unobtainable perfect system it seems an acceptable fudge to simply create a reference server system that is not hosted by any eye-ball ISP and is well connected to all major transit suppliers and/or important local IXs. > Switching to the transportation analogy, one might ask your local bus or rail > company what their typical time is to get from one city to another. If the > two cities involved happen to be on their rail or bus network, perhaps you > can get an answer, but it will still depend on where the two endpoints are. > If one or both cities are not on their rail network, the travel time might > have to include use of other "networks" - bus, rental car, airplane, ship, > etc. How long does it typically take for you to get from any city on the > planet to any other city on the planet? [SM] We already hold transport companies accountable for extreme delays... (ever got abandoned on an airport somewhere between your start and end point for an additional over-night stay?) > IMHO, rules and regulations for the Internet need to reflect how the Internet > actually works. That's why I suggested a focus on education for the decision > makers. [SM] Sure education does work. however for the problem at hand it might make sense to look at already deployed "solutions" to similar problems... Regards Sebastian P.S.: I am not arguing the EU regulation is perfect in any way (and also not completely free of lobby influence), but IMHO it clearly is better than nothing, and might already be good enough. > > Jack Haverty > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain _______________________________________________ Nnagain mailing list Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
