Hi,
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:58 PM, <josef.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 3:45 PM, alex <argri...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Matthew Brett <matthew.br...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Nathaniel Smith <n...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 4:59 PM, alex <argri...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
>> >>> Hello list,
>> >>>
>> >>> I wrote this mini-nep for numpy but I've been advised it is more
>> >>> appropriate for discussion on the list.
>> >>>
>> >>> """
>> >>> The ``numpy.matrix`` API provides a low barrier to using Python
>> >>> for linear algebra, just as the pre-3 Python ``input`` function
>> >>> and ``print`` statement provided low barriers to using Python for
>> >>> automatically evaluating input and for printing output.
>> >>>
>> >>> On the other hand, it really needs to be deprecated.
>> >>> Let's deprecate ``numpy.matrix``.
>> >>> """
>> >>>
>> >>> I understand that numpy.matrix will not be deprecated any time soon,
>> >>> but I hope this will register as a vote to help nudge its deprecation
>> >>> closer to the realm of acceptable discussion.
>> >>
>> >> To make this more productive, maybe it would be useful to elaborate on
>> >> what exactly we should do here.
>> >>
>> >> I can't imagine we'll actually remove 'matrix' from the numpy
>> >> namespace at any point in the near future.
>> > {out of order paste}:
>> >> Maybe there should be a big warning to this effect in the np.matrix
>> >> docstring?
>> >
>> > That seems reasonable to me. Maybe, to avoid heat and fast changes
>> > the NEP could lay out different options with advantages and
>> > disadvantages.
>> >
>> >> I do have the sense that when people choose to use it, they eventually
>> >> come to regret this choice. It's a bit buggy and has confusing
>> >> behaviours, and due to limitations of numpy's subclassing model, will
>> >> probably always be buggy and have confusing behaviours. And it's
>> >> marketed as being for new users, who are exactly the kind of users who
>> >> aren't sophisticated enough to recognize these dangers.
>> >
>> > This paragraph is a good summary of why the current situation of
>> > np.matrix could cause harm.
>> >
>> > It would really useful to have some hard evidence of who's using it
>> > though. Are there projects that use np.matrix extensively? If so,
>> > maybe some code from these could be use-cases to see if (pseudo-)
>> > deprecation is practical?
>> >
>> > Alex - do you have time to lay this stuff out? I bet the NEP would be
>> > a good way of helping the discussion stays on track. At very least it
>> > could be a reference point the next time this comes up.
>>
>> I don't think I have enough perspective to write a real NEP, but maybe
>> as a starting point we could begin a list somewhere, like on a wiki or
>> possibly in the numpy github repo, surveying an early 2014 snapshot of
>> the linear algebra APIs used by various Python projects. For example
>> according to the responses in this thread, statsmodels seems to avoid
>> using numpy.matrix except possibly for interfacing with pandas, and at
>> least one professor relies on the numpy.matrix interface for classroom
>> teaching. The list could include short quotes from people involved in
>> the projects, if they want to share an opinion.
>>
>> It wouldn't be my intention to treat such a list as a vote, but rather
>> as data and as an excuse to make a list of cool projects; I suspect
>> that members of most projects would say "we don't use numpy.matrix but
>> we don't mind if other people use it" and that most teachers or
>> students who benefit from the gentler syntax of numpy.matrix would not
>> even be reached by such a survey.
>
>
> My impression:
>
> As long as there is no big maintenance cost (which there isn't), I don't see
> any reason to remove matrix and to debate it every few years.
No, all agree I think - let's not remove it.
> All the users that are participating or reading the mailing list have been
> indoctrinated for years not to use matrix.
Here is the rub. This discussion does come up - 'np.array or
np.matrix'. It came up in a Software Carpentry boot camp I was
teaching on - and the instructors disagreed.
I think the active questions here are:
* Should we collect the discussion in coherent form somewhere?
* Should we add something to the np.matrix docstring and if so what?
* (Pauli's point): to what extent should we try to emulate the np.matrix API.
Best,
Matthew
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