"far" should have said "fair" in the previous message
On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 4:35 PM Brian Campbell <bcampb...@pingidentity.com> wrote: > It may well be due to my own intellectual shortcomings but these > issues/questions/confusion-points are not resonating for me as being > problematic. > > The more general stance of "this isn't needed or worth it in this > document" (I think that's far?) is being heard though. > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 1:42 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna= > 40amazon....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> (TL;DR: punt AS metadata to a separate draft) >> >> AS points #1-3 are all questions I would have as an implementer: >> >> 1. Section 2 of RFC8414 >> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8414#section-2> says token_endpoint >> “is REQUIRED unless only the implicit grant type is supported..” So what >> does the mTLS-only AS put here? >> 2. The claims for these other endpoints are OPTIONAL, potentially >> leading to inconsistency depending on how #1 gets decided. >> 3. The example usage of the token_endpoint_auth_methods property >> given earlier is incompatible with RFC8414, since some of its contents are >> only valid for the non-mTLS endpoints, and others are only valid for the >> mTLS endpoints. Hence this question. >> 4. This introduces a new metadata property that could impact how >> other specs should extend AS metadata. That needs to be addressed. >> >> >> >> I could go on for client points but you already get the point. Though >> I’ll share that #3 is real and once forced me to roll back an update to the >> Login with Amazon userinfo endpoint…good times. 😃 >> >> >> >> I don’t necessarily think an AS metadata property is wrong per se, but >> understand that you’re bolting a layer of flexibility onto a standard that >> wasn’t designed for that, and I don’t think the metadata proposal as it’s >> been discussed here sufficiently deals with the fallout from that. In my >> view this is a complex enough issue and it’s for a nuanced enough use case >> (as far as I can tell from discussion? Please correct me if I’m wrong) that >> we should punt it to a separate draft (e.g., “Authorization Server Metadata >> Extensions for mTLS Hybrids”) and get mTLS out the door. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Annabelle Richard Backman >> >> AWS Identity >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *OAuth <oauth-boun...@ietf.org> on behalf of Brian Campbell >> <bcampbell=40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org> >> *Date: *Monday, February 4, 2019 at 5:28 AM >> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna=40amazon....@dmarc.ietf.org> >> *Cc: *oauth <oauth@ietf.org> >> *Subject: *Re: [OAUTH-WG] [UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: MTLS and in-browser >> clients using the token endpoint >> >> >> >> Those points of confusion strike me as somewhat hypothetical or >> hyperbolic. But your general point is taken and your position of being anti >> additional metadata on this issue is noted. >> >> >> >> All of which leaves me a bit uncertain about how to proceed. There seem >> to be a range of opinions on this point and gauging consensus is proving >> elusive for me. That's confounded by my own opinion on it being somewhat >> fluid. >> >> >> >> And I'd really like to post an update to this draft about a month or two >> ago. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 5:03 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna= >> 40amazon....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> Confusion from the AS’s perspective: >> >> 1. If I only support mTLS, do I need to include both >> token_endpoint_uri and mtls_endpoints? Should I omit token_endpoint_uri? >> Or >> set it to the empty string? >> 2. What if I only support mTLS for the token endpoint, but not >> revocation or user info? >> 3. How do I specify authentication methods for the mTLS token >> endpoint? Does token_endpoint_auth_methods apply to both the mTLS and >> non-mTLS endpoints? >> 4. I’m using the OAuth 2.0 Device Flow. Do I include a mTLS-enabled >> device_authorization_endpoint under mtls_endpoints? >> >> >> >> Confusion from the client’s perspective: >> >> 1. As far as I know, I’m a public client, and don’t know anything >> about mTLS, but the IT admins installed client certs in their users’ >> browsers and the AS expects to use that to authenticate me. >> 2. My AS metadata parser crashed because the mTLS-only AS omitted >> token_endpoint_uri. >> 3. My AS metadata parser crashed because it didn’t expect to >> encounter a JSON object as a parameter value. >> 4. The mTLS-only AS didn’t provide a value for mtls_endpoints, what >> do I do? >> 5. I don’t know what that “m” means, but they told me to use HTTPS, >> so I should use the one with “tls” in its name, right? >> >> >> >> Yes, you can write normative text that answers most of these. But you’ll >> have to clearly cover a lot of similar-but-slightly-different scenarios and >> be very explicit. And implementers will still get it wrong. The metadata >> change introduces opportunities for confusion and failure that do not exist >> now, and forces them on everyone who supports mTLS. In contrast, the 307 >> redirect is only required when an AS wants to support both, and is >> unambiguous in its behavior and meaning. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Annabelle Richard Backman >> >> AWS Identity >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *Brian Campbell <bcampbell=40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org> >> *Date: *Friday, February 1, 2019 at 3:17 PM >> *To: *"Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richa...@amazon.com> >> *Cc: *George Fletcher <gffle...@aol.com>, oauth <oauth@ietf.org> >> *Subject: *[UNVERIFIED SENDER] Re: [OAUTH-WG] MTLS and in-browser >> clients using the token endpoint >> >> >> >> It doesn't seem like that confusing or large of a change to me - if the >> client is doing MTLS and the given endpoint is present in `mtls_endpoints`, >> then it uses that one. Otherwise it uses the regular endpoint. It gives an >> AS a lot of flexibility in deployment options. I personally think getting a >> 307 approach deployed and working would be more complicated and error >> prone. >> >> >> >> It is a minority use case at the moment but there are forces in play, >> like the push for increased security in general and to have javascript >> clients use the code flow, that suggest it won't be terribly unusual to see >> an AS that wants to support MTLS clients and javascript/spa clients at the >> same time. >> >> >> >> I've personally wavered back and forth in this thread on whether or not >> to add the new metadata (or something like it). With my reasoning each way >> kinda explained somewhere back in the 40 or so messages that make up this >> thread. But it seems like the rough consensus of the group here is in >> favor of it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 3:18 PM Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna= >> 40amazon....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> This strikes me as a very prominent and confusing change to support what >> seems to be a minority use case. I’m getting a headache just thinking about >> the text needed to clarify when the AS should provide `mtls_endpoints` and >> when the client should use that versus using `token_endpoint.` Why is the >> 307 status code insufficient to cover the case where a single AS supports >> both mTLS and non-mTLS? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Annabelle Richard Backman >> >> AWS Identity >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *OAuth <oauth-boun...@ietf.org> on behalf of Brian Campbell >> <bcampbell=40pingidentity....@dmarc.ietf.org> >> *Date: *Friday, February 1, 2019 at 1:31 PM >> *To: *George Fletcher <gffletch=40aol....@dmarc.ietf.org >> <40aol....@dmarc...ietf.org>> >> *Cc: *oauth <oauth@ietf.org> >> *Subject: *Re: [OAUTH-WG] MTLS and in-browser clients using the token >> endpoint >> >> >> >> Yes, that would work. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 2:28 PM George Fletcher <gffletch= >> 40aol....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> What if the AS wants to ONLY support MTLS connections. Does it not >> specify the optional "mtls_endpoints" and just use the normal metadata >> values? >> >> On 1/15/19 8:48 AM, Brian Campbell wrote: >> >> It would definitely be optional, apologies if that wasn't made clear. >> It'd be something to the effect of optional for the AS to include and >> clients doing MTLS would use it when present in AS metadata. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:04 AM Dave Tonge <dave.to...@momentumft.co.uk> >> wrote: >> >> I'm in favour of the `mtls_endpoints` metadata parameter - although it >> should be optional. >> >> >> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and >> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any >> review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited... >> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender >> immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from >> your computer. Thank you.* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> OAuth mailing list >> >> OAuth@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/oauth >> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth> >> >> >> >> >> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and >> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any >> review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited... >> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender >> immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from >> your computer. Thank you.* >> >> >> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and >> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). 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