On May 11, 2013, at 10:05 AM, Nikola M. <minik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/10/13 02:19 AM, Garrett D'Amore wrote:
>> more constructive than whinging about it will be to find ways to either a)
>> make a commercially viable case for it so people can get paid to work on it,
>> or b) lead a volunteer effort to make this work.
> I think that without Desktop that is running on the server, I can not
> sell Illumos based distribution as a server product. That is because
> small companies and offices expect to have GUI working, so they can log
> in and possible do something with the machine. I suppose that machine
> without GUI would look to them as a "blackbox" if there is just command
> line.
And yet, many people are building products on top of illumos that *are* selling
well, and don't provide a graphical login (at least not in the traditional
sense -- some of them offer a browser based login.) SmartOS, Nexenta,
GreenBytes, etc…. even Sun traditionally sold more headless systems than
systems with a graphical desktop. (All those rack mount systems don't need a
graphical desktop -- but they *should* offer a compelling experience using
other management tools -- like Browser or native mobile apps to help with
systems management.)
> There is no desktop per se and server as a product per se. It is the
> server distribution that has desktop environment and programs for
> convenience. If I am selling it, I am selling a server. And having
> Desktop environments on server is nice. Not having desktop environment
> on server in 2013 is NOT NICE.
Actually, I think this attitude is dated for the reverse reason. In 2013
*desktop* doesn't matter, and that trend has only been accelerating. Because
people access their systems using their personal Macs, or more often using thin
clients (tablets, mobile devices, etc.)… 10 years ago your arguments were much
more valid, IMO.
The question is no longer about whether I need a desktop UI on my server, but
is now moving to whether I need a desktop at all. (I think a bunch of us *do*,
but we're a shrinking population.)
[ cut! ]
> One thing many people do not realize is that because of advanced Illumos
> technologies, Illumos-based distributions have a potential to be
> super-desktops in some future. Maybe that IS insane, but
> I tend to see the future where I use GUI to manage servers and do things
> I can not do with CLI-only.
Hey, now you're talking! If were (or anyone) is going to invest in an illumos
desktop, why not do it in a way that makes sure that what we're doing is
*better* than just another Linux distro. Trying to keep playing catchup with
Ubuntu is IMO a wasted effort. If on the other hand you can *surpass* them in
some meaningful ways, *then* you've got my attention. The problem is that
nobody has been able to do that yet.
> If Fedora would ditch desktop upon install, and Ubuntu started releasing
> only server edition without Desktop environment, what would be left of
> them selling to customers? (Even if server do not run Desktop)
> What would you show to them on the presentation? Black screen of 1985?
They show GDM today. But who really cares about that? Of the people who are
decision makers in any company, how many of them choose a Linux graphical
desktop?
The exception here is the Chromebook experience and OLPC…. they were able to do
something cool and make a compelling argument. But nobody else has built a
compelling Linux or Unix desktop with a reason to exist besides being "free".
And there is no commercial value in just being "free" -- you can't make up in
volume unless you have some revenue. :-)
>
> I always planned to eventually sell Illumos distro as a server, but I
> want a customer to SEE it and say:
> "OK, NICE, whatever". And not: "Oh, no.., whatever".
> And that is how money could flow. If I have something to contribute back
> , but without GUI, I don't think it can sell.
I think if you believe your buyers care about the desktop, then I think you
probably don't understand your buyers. Or possibly I don't understand your
market -- but in the *server* space almost *nobody* cares about the desktop UI.
- Garrett
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