Thanks Ivar, that makes it a lot clearer to me. š Regards, Silje
From: openEHR-clinical <openehr-clinical-boun...@lists.openehr.org> On Behalf Of Ivar Yrke Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 11:36 AM To: For openEHR clinical discussions <openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org> Subject: SV: How to define transitions in the ISM Iāll try again. To see my problem, imagine that you have an instance of a state machine that is currently in SUSPENDED. Now tell a nurse what options he has. You can do that based on the RM and the actual ACTION archetype, provided you can relate the archetype constrains to the RM. The possible transitions are pre-constrained by the RM, as you say, and there is no need from our side to change that. The problem we face is that the ISM_TRANSITIONS as they are generated by current tools, do not carry enough information to identify their place in the RM. Which arrow do they represent? The only thing we get to know is their āend pointā (current_state), but we cannot distinguish e.g. āresumeā from āactive_stepā. Having the transition property populated would solve this for us. Without this information what our applications see is basically a mutilated state chart diagram, like this: [cid:image001.jpg@01D42D80.AF2B6EB0] We can see that there are incoming and outgoing arrows, but we have no information about which end belongs to which. From the RM we know that there can be an arrow going from SUSPENDED to ACTIVE, but which one is it? I know, again from RM, that its transition is āresumeā, but without this information I just see like in the diagram. Even though my archetype has two ISM_TRANSITIONS with current_state ACTIVE, there is no way to figure out which of them are relevant from the SUSPENDED state. We simply need more information in the archetype to be able to refer it to the RM. So what is the big deal, canāt I just pick one? Well, in a just recording scenario I could. But I want to present the options to the nurse as guidance and there is a rather big difference in presenting the option āResume suspended drugā from āDeliver drugā (these texts are the workflow_steps). To do that correctly I need to know which arrow goes out of SUSPENDED and the transition (together with RM) will tell me that. Vennlig hilsen Ivar Yrke Senior systemutvikler DIPS AS Telefon +47 75 59 24 06 Mobil +47 90 78 89 33 Fra: openEHR-clinical [mailto:openehr-clinical-boun...@lists.openehr.org] PĆ„ vegne av Bakke, Silje Ljosland Sendt: 6. august 2018 10:42 Til: For openEHR clinical discussions <openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org>> Emne: RE: How to define transitions in the ISM Also a bit of a late reply, dure to the holidaysā¦ First about Ivarās reply to my earlier comment: Iām not sure I understand the technical implications of this issue (though Iām very interested to learn), so Iāll have to accept at face value that this is something thatās needed. š The way I understand this, the possible transitions are pre-constrained by the RM state machine, right? So the issue is that you sometimes need to constrain this further for specific careflow_step? I understand that this can sometimes be needed in a specific use case, but I still believe it will be hard or impossible to predict for very generic archetypes like the ACTIONs weāve currently published. Could this be specified at template level instead, or in addition to at the archetype level (where feasible)? As Thomas commented further up in the thread, weāre in the process of slowly moving to the ADL Designer tools by Marand, which are in beta testing atm. Could we get someone from Marand to comment on this issue? (Fabio, Iām looking at you š) Finally, I agree with Heather that the way the template modelling tools (both Template Designer and ADL Designer) are handling OBSERVATION events, would be a very pedagogical way to handle ACTION steps and transitions as well, if possible. For new modellers, seeing an OBSERVATION archetype in the template modelling tool is often what makes understanding events click. Having a similar way of visualising careflow_steps and transitions would be extremely useful, as this is a complex area a lot of modellers (myself included) struggle to wrap their brains around. Regards, Silje From: openEHR-clinical [mailto:openehr-clinical-boun...@lists.openehr.org] On Behalf Of Ivar Yrke Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 1:59 PM To: For openEHR clinical discussions <openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org>> Subject: SV: How to define transitions in the ISM Hi all Somewhat late reply due to vacationā¦ We have come across that same problem and for us it actually was a show stopper for which we had to invent a work around. First a remark about the tools: We saw that ArchetypeEditor did not add the transition. So we tried to add I manually to the adl-file. We found however that AE ignores it and after saving again from AE it is gone. Further we tried to use the modified adl in a template using Template Designer, but it was ignored and no trace of it in the resulting opt. These are very serious limitations in the tools and forces a work around that we should very much like to abandon (see below). It raises the question how the community should go forward to make sure there are appropriate tools. Who owns the tools? Who pays for their maintenance? The ISM is potentially a very powerful asset of openEHR. Missing the transition property mutilates it to very limited value. Then a remark to Siljeās reply: āSolvingā the problem in the business logic is only possible when recoding after the fact. Given that the current state is so and so and the new state is so and so we can deduce (in most cases) the transition. Our problem: Our problem is the opposite of solving after the fact. We want to present to the user only the transitions valid at any moment in time. Given the ISM and completely defined ISM_TRANSITIONs this would be possible and easy. But not so without the transition! Without that information it is not possible to distinguish the transitions having the same current state. To see the problem, assume a simple state machine with one of each of these transitions: active_step, suspend and resume. Let the current state be SUSPENDED (last recorded action was suspend). In this state we only want to give the user the option to resume. However, without the transition property in the ISM_TRANSITION we cannot distinguish resume from active_step. Both have ACTIVE as their current step and careflow_step is only descriptive and not usable. The only option is to give the user all choices and assume he does the right thing. Not a good option. After all, resuming a suspended drug and administering the drug are quite different things and we do not want an erroneous administering to take place as result of our system suggesting it! Our work around: Fortunately each ISM_TRANSITION has a unique id. Based on this id we add the missing transition, from our own local configuration, to the archetypes we use after having loaded them. This information is transient and only lives in our memory instances of the archetype. But at least we have it available so that we can make a full state machine evaluation and find only the relevant transitions to present to the user. Some questions: What if the user inadvertently administers a drug that has been suspended? In that case he surely needs to have this transition anyway, doesnāt he? Well, yes, but not as a suggestion from our system! This situation must be handled separately from guiding the user through the states. In fact, it could be argued that this be recorded as an ad hoc action. With regards, Ivar Yrke Senior systemutvikler DIPS AS Telephone +47 75 59 24 06 Mobile +47 90 78 89 33 Fra: openEHR-clinical [mailto:openehr-clinical-boun...@lists.openehr.org] PĆ„ vegne av Pablo Pazos Sendt: 2. juli 2018 22:45 Til: For openEHR clinical discussions <openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org>> Emne: Re: How to define transitions in the ISM Hi Heather, thanks for the insight. It seems this is a well known issue for clinical modelers. I certainly agree with the criteria of the maximal dataset, IMO what makes a maximal dataset depends on the modelers interpretation of each specific use case. Of course less constraints allow a greater set of use cases to be considered, but also increases the work that needs to be done to fill the blanks between a generic archetype and a specific State Machine to be implemented. That negotiation that you mention is what I described as "extra metadata needs to be given for implementation". In terms of the gap in modeling tools, I agree, technically archetype editors and template designers (Ocean and others) should be able to constraint the valid or invalid transitions. Then if modelers use or not those constraints, should depend on their criteria, not on limitations of modeling tools. On the other hand, this issue of modeling tools not supporting these constraints might be because in the RM, ISM_TRANSITION is not LOCATABLE (all classes that can be archetyped), but inherits from PATHABLE (RM 1.0.2 & 1.0.3). Considering this, it is a little inconsistent that the AE allows to create constraints for ACTION.ism_transition, but only for the ISM_TRANSITION.current_state and ISM_TRANSITION.careflow_step. but not ISM_TRANSITION.transition. Maybe a solution form the RM is to make ISM_TRANSITION inherit from LOCATABLE, then update modeling tools to support it. I will mention this to the SEC. Best, Pablo. On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 4:21 AM, Heather Leslie <heather.les...@atomicainformatics.com<mailto:heather.les...@atomicainformatics.com>> wrote: Hi Pablo, Every archetype ideally needs to be designed for the maximal dataset and universal use case. The ACTION archetypes are no different. But you have picked up on a major gap in our tooling at present ā the modellers need the ability to be able to constrain the ACTION archetypes in templates for each use case: Ā· to show what data points are relevant for each pathway step, and Ā· which steps are relevant to our use case. It is also not currently possible for modellers to record the proposed workflow or transitions in any template at present. This is another major gap and, in practice, is usually managed on a project by project basis a negotiated by the parties involved ā verbally, word docs etc. This is a relatively unexplored area where we need more tooling and/or standardised processes to communicate the requirements of the clinicians and intent of the modellers to the software engineers implementing systems. No silver bullet here, yet. But open to collaborate with anyone who has suggestionsā¦ Regards Heather From: openEHR-clinical <openehr-clinical-boun...@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openehr-clinical-boun...@lists.openehr.org>> On Behalf Of Pablo Pazos Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2018 4:12 AM To: For openEHR clinical discussions <openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org>> Subject: Re: How to define transitions in the ISM Hi Silje, I got the issue with complex workflows. With the current solution you'll need to provide more metadata to the developers so they can implement the correct workflows, like possible or impossible transitions from one state to another, because constraints are not in the archetype. On the other hand, simple workflows can be completely specified in the archetype without providing extra medadata separately from the archetype, since both states and possible transitions can be specified there, like the little toy state machine on my previous message. The issue is the AE doesn't allow to express constraints for the ISM_TRANSITION.transition (DV_CODED_TEXT) attribute (a constraint that can explicitly state a list of valid transitions to reach that state, I think "transition" is about inbound transitions not outbound, but that is a separate issue). I'll test if this can be done using LinkEHR. Also for complex flows, it would be good to provide the possible transitions, even if the list of possibilities is big, this is just to make the archetype contain all the metadata needed for implementation, without the need of providing that externally to the archetype. I know this requires more work in the archetype, but it might be less work in total, since the problem will need to be solved as you said, in the business logic. IMO this approach does not add more constraints to the archetype, just more information, and made the implicit freedom of transitions explicit. Maybe this should be considered case by case, and modeling tools should allow to constraint the transition, but leave that to the modeler. I think a good approach is to constraint what can be constrained, for instance on the medication archetype there are a lot of transitions between active states, but maybe there are less transitions between other states, and those can be in the archetype. This would remove a little friction at development time. It would be nice to know how other modelers do this and how other implementers deal with non defined transitions in ACTION archetypes. Best, Pablo. On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:35 AM, Bakke, Silje Ljosland <silje.ljosland.ba...@nasjonalikt.no<mailto:silje.ljosland.ba...@nasjonalikt.no>> wrote: Hi Pablo! Iāll try to answer your question about how clinical modellers solve this problem. Have a look at the ACTION.medication archetype (http://openehr.org/ckm/#showArchetype_1013.1.123). This archetype has 11 separate steps for the ACTIVE state. In each medication management context, one or more of these will be relevant, and often in a way or order thatās not possible to predict. We therefore āsolveā the problem by leaving it to the business logic of the application. This may be frustrating for the implementers (I donāt know, is it?), but it makes our work manageable. Designing ACTION archetypes is complex in the first place, and Iām not sure weād get any published if we needed to map out all possible combinations and orders of pathway steps too. Regards, Silje From: openEHR-clinical <openehr-clinical-boun...@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openehr-clinical-boun...@lists.openehr.org>> On Behalf Of Pablo Pazos Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 3:45 AM To: For openEHR clinical discussions <openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openehr-clinical@lists.openehr.org>> Subject: How to define transitions in the ISM Hi all, I'm testing the AE for a new workshop, and designed a simple state machine for and order so my students can use it as basic for more complex state machines. I have: NEW (maps to ISM PLANNED), ASSIGNED (maps to ISM PLANNED), STARTED (maps to ISM ACTIVE) and FINISHED (maps to ISM COMPLETED). What the AE is not allowing is to specify the ISM_TRANSITION.transition : DV_CODED_TEXT. The problem is if I have two states mapped to ASSIGNED, how a software knows which one is the state to activate if the transition "initiate" is not define. Also I want to specify that from new should happen a "plan_step" transition to change the state to ASSIGNED. Seems we are missing important metadata in the archetype. How do clinical modelers solve those problems? Will test LinkEHR to see how they define the ISM and the valid transitions. Thanks, Pablo. -- Ing. Pablo Pazos GutiĆ©rrez pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com<mailto:pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com> +598 99 043 145 skype: cabolabs Subscribe to our newsletter<http://eepurl.com/b_w_tj> [https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B27lX-sxkymfM1pnTU44YXlFbHc&export=download]<https://cabolabs.com/> http://www.cabolabs.com<http://www.cabolabs.com/> https://cloudehrserver.com<https://cloudehrserver.com/> _______________________________________________ openEHR-clinical mailing list openEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.org> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org -- Ing. Pablo Pazos GutiĆ©rrez pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com<mailto:pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com> +598 99 043 145 skype: cabolabs Subscribe to our newsletter<http://eepurl.com/b_w_tj> [https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B27lX-sxkymfM1pnTU44YXlFbHc&export=download]<https://cabolabs.com/> http://www.cabolabs.com<http://www.cabolabs.com/> https://cloudehrserver.com<https://cloudehrserver.com/> _______________________________________________ openEHR-clinical mailing list openEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openEHR-clinical@lists.openehr.org> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org -- Ing. Pablo Pazos GutiĆ©rrez pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com<mailto:pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com> +598 99 043 145 skype: cabolabs Subscribe to our newsletter<http://eepurl.com/b_w_tj> [https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B27lX-sxkymfM1pnTU44YXlFbHc&export=download]<https://cabolabs.com/> http://www.cabolabs.com<http://www.cabolabs.com/> https://cloudehrserver.com<https://cloudehrserver.com/>
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