Dear John

Here is the opensource material - Modzilla lisence:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/interbase

The content of the sort of documents you are trying to do is not simple. You
are pushing for a solution that will cut right across all standards work at
the moment - perhpas this is appropriate - but we have been working for
years in GEHR/openEHR to achieve this and are now having some success.

I would argue that you probably have to use HL7 CDA or GEHR/openEHR at the
moment to do this in a generic way. It is our hope that we will extract data
and send it via Argus in the way you have described but the problem is a
large one and not easily solved.

You can create GEHR/openEHR compliant XML files with perl and display them
as HTML in the DSTC GEHR/openEHR viewer. Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] - he is
leading the Titanium team who are doing the technical work.

Good luck - Sam


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Gage [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, 24 May 2002 6:25 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Medical record keeping using e-mail protocols
>
>
> Gavin's paper, Brian's Picnic project, and Sam's Argus project
> contain a large quantity of reading material.  Large as in a 169 page
> Word document for Picnic alone.  I have not absorbed this material
> yet :-)
>
> During the absorption process, I would like to introduce another
> punch line: this list can create the basic templates and attachments
> that would underlie 98% of the medical record.  After all, this list
> is a series of e-mail messages and there's no law that says that a
> portion of these messages cannot be examples of the kind of
> messages/documents/reports/notes/etc. one would want to find in a
> medical record stored on/beside an IMAP server.  I will post a few
> samples soon.
>
> My other thought during absorption is that the person who I would
> dearly love to interest in e-mail applied to medical record keeping
> is Philip Hazel (http://freshmeat.net/~ph10/), who created Exim.  It
> would seem to me that he, or his designee, would be the fellow to
> take on the non-domain stuff that the world of HIPAA will be looking
> carefully at.  Seeing that Philip is in Cambridge, would one of the
> British members be interested in talking to him or having him talk to
> us?  Just a thought...
>
> And a quick question about Argus.  Interbase does not seem to be
> either a) open  source or b) free.  As someone who bit about as hard
> as a human being can bite on the Java hype (I have switched to Perl),
> I respect those who are using Java, but Interbase doesn't even seem
> to claim any relation to open source.  Am I missing something?
>
> John
>
>
> >Dear All
> >
> >I have been involved in an effort to achieve some of what you are talking
> >about in the list - and also in the effort to ensure that the work is
> >opensource.
> >
> >http://www.ballarat.edu.au/cceh/Argus/
> >
> >It is a project in AUstralia to set up a clinical encrypted email service
> >which is based on an interbase server - the server is the POP
> client for as
> >many addresses as required. The client looks like an email
> client but works
> >from the database - email forwards and copies are all virtual -
> and there is
> >a tracking mechanism. Automatic processing - export from the server to
> >applications can be enabled and an API is being developed at present for
> >communications in the other direction.
> >
> >The site is the Collaborative Centre for eHealth and the
> Division of General
> >Practice
> >www.tedgp.asn.au
> >here in Darwin is the fundholder of the grant.
> >
> >Cheers, Sam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>  -----Original Message-----
> >>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Churches
> >>  Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2002 5:18 AM
> >>  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>  Subject: Re: More on Re: Medical messaging using e-mail
> >>
> >>
> >>  Adrian Midgley wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  > On Monday 20 May 2002 20:34, Tim Churches wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  > > OK, sorry, I missed that last part:
> >>  > > > > It has total control of who it talks
> >>  > > > > to and what path it uses to transfer mail.
> >>  >
> >>  > This is important... _total_
> >>
> >>  I'm not convinced of this (see below).
> >>
> >>  >
> >>  > > a) If Dr A sends a message to Dr C via Dr B's mail server, Dr
> >>  A probably
> >>  > > doesn't want Dr B to be able to read the message to Dr C
> >>  >
> >>  > So don't do that!
> >>  >
> >>  > > b) How will these special purpose routing tables be
> maintained? Easy
> >>  > > when there are
> >>  > > only 10 mail servers, not so when there are 1,000 or 10,000.
> >>  >
> >>  > DNS
> >>  >
> >>  > SMTP is used in two ways.  Routinely.
> >>  > Small dial-up systems tend to use SMTP - relay, where they
> pass on tehir
> >>  > messages to a smarthost which then relays them...
> >>  >
> >>  > Larger always-on systems, or mine if I flick the switch,
> >>  usually use Direct
> >>  > SMTP
> >>  >
> >>  > In this case they look up the Mail eXchanger record in DNS
> >>  (which could be a
> >>  > collegiate DNS, or a private one, it doesn't have to be
> public) for the
> >>  > recipient, and connect to it and pass the mail file to it.
> >  >
> >  > Yes, but surely the MX (mail exchange) records in the DNS
> for the target
> >  > (recipient) mail server
> >  > are under control of whoever administers that mail server,
> and are not
> >  > under the control of the sender?
> >>
> >>  To use the example above:
> >>
> >>  Last week, the DNS MX record for Dr C's mail address pointed
> >>  directly to Dr C's mail server located in her offices. Dr A felt
> >>  perfectly safe in discussing
> >>  the botched hemicolectomy performed by Dr B on one of her
> patients in an
> >>  email message to Dr C.
> >>
> >>  This week: Dr C's mail server has suffered a software
> melt-down (it was
> >>  running proprietary software...),
> >>  so Dr C changes her MX record to direct messages to Dr B's mail server
> >>  while she converts to a more
> >>  reliable open source server solution. She plans to pick up
> her mail from
> >>  Dr B's server. Dr A sends Dr C another
> >>  message complaining about a hamfisted sigmoidoscopy performed
> by Dr B on
> >>  another of her patients. Meanwhile,
> >>  Dr B thinks that something might be wrong with the
> configuration of his
> >>  mail server, and being a surgeon,
> >>  he cant't stop himself from digging around in the guts of sendmail.
> >>  While doing so, he innocently stumbles
> >>  across the stored message from Dr A to Dr C which calls into question
> >>  his competence with the scalpel and the `scope.
> >>  Oh dear! His ego wounded, Dr B initiates divorce proceedings
> against Dr
> >>  A (to whom he is married). Another medical
> >>  marriage on the rocks!
> >>
> >>  A contrived example, but the point is that DNS-based routing is under
> >>  the control of the recipient, not the sender.
> >>
> >>  >
> >>  > I think the story about having no control over where messages
> >>  go is actually
> >>  > FUD, probably spread about by X.400 vendors or users, since the
> >>  controlson
> >>  > path for SMTP and X.400 are not that different - IE if you are
> >>  using a chain
> >>  > (not obvious since your smarthost probably spends all day doing
> >>  Direct SMTP
> >>  > to destination mailservers) the route on from each machine is
> >>  dependent on
> >>  > the good judgement of the owners and administrators of that
> >>  machine, and why
> >>  > owuld the previous link choose them if it didn't know and trust
> >>  them.  It
> >>  > isn't random.
> >>
> >>  I agree that X.400 based systems are not necessarily any different in
> >>  this respect.
> >>  I used the word different not better, because I don't think there is
> >>  anything wrong
> >>  with the currenet DNS system - it is difficult to conceive of
> a workable
> >>  system which
> >>  would allow the sender to completely determine the physical routing of
> >>  messages, rather
> >>  than the recipient.
> >>
> >>  Of course, all of the above discussion relates to the upper levels of
> >>  the network.
> >>  The route which the TCP/IP packets which actually comprise the message
> >>  being
> >>  transferred is another matter entirely, and you have even less control
> >>  over their routing.
> >>  Those packets can be "sniffed" very simply at every router involved.
> >>  Thus, encryption of
> >>  the payload of those packets is still essential even when the
> message is
> >>  transferred directly
> >>  from Dr A's mail server to Dr C's mail server - the packets involved
> >>  still go via other people's
> >>  routers and networks.
> >>
> >>  Tim C
> >>
>

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