Hey Breno, our emails crossed I guess.  It sounds like we both had the same
idea. :)
--
Andrew Arnott
"I [may] not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death
your right to say it." - S. G. Tallentyre


On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Andrew Arnott <[email protected]>wrote:

> I agree with Allen, although to resurrect an old idea I once suggested,
> Yahoo could observe that the return_to URL is HTTP only and do its own
> stateful redirect (with an artifact payload to itself) to HTTP *before* doing
> the POST to the RP, which would:
>
>    1. use POST instead of GET
>    2. avoid the SSL warning to users
>    3. do so without any changes to the spec or RPs
>
> The cost of course is that the redirect within Yahoo is stateful, which may
> not scale as well as their current implementation.
>
> Of this isn't a Yahoo-specific problem, of course, but since the example
> came up...
> --
> Andrew Arnott
> "I [may] not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death
> your right to say it." - S. G. Tallentyre
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Brian Kissel <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>>  +1 Allen, here’s what I get on HuffPo, not very compelling and probably
>> a trigger to “Cancel” to most users.  We need to fix this ASAP!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> *___________*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *Brian Kissel <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/10/254>*
>>
>> CEO - JanRain, Inc.
>>
>> [email protected]
>>
>> Mobile: 503.342.2668 | Fax: 503.296.5502
>>
>> 519 SW 3rd Ave. Suite 600  Portland, OR 97204
>>
>>
>>
>> *Increase registrations, engage users, and grow your brand with RPX.
>> Learn more at **www.rpxnow.com*
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* [email protected] [mailto:
>> [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Allen Tom
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 22, 2010 10:43 AM
>> *To:* Andrew Arnott; John Bradley; Breno de Medeiros; specs
>> *Subject:* Re: Problem with nonces and HTTP GET
>>
>>
>>
>> The SSL security warning is a really terrible UX, and I agree that it
>> doesn’t make sense to warn on POST but not on GET.
>>
>> Yahoo is running into the 2KB limit (and the associated SSL warning) with
>> alarming frequency and it’s really hurting OpenID relative to the
>> proprietary SSO solutions.
>>
>> For a real live example of how the giant AX names are hurting OpenID, see
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com – click on the Login link, then the
>> “Connect with Yahoo” button. This kicks off the Hybrid OpenID+Oauth+AX flow
>> which requires a POST response – forcing the user to click through a
>> security warning to complete the sign in flow. The non-OpenID SSO choices
>> (Facebook/Twitter/GFC) do not have this issue.
>>
>> With regards to changing browsers to not display SSL warnings for POST, or
>> relying on smart OpenID clients – we really need a solution right now, since
>> the proprietary alternatives are rapidly being adopted.
>>
>> WRT the nonce – I think it would make more sense for RPs to just check the
>> timestamp, and allow replay for a “narrow” window, like 10 minutes. There
>> are many legitimate reasons why a request could be replayed – intermediate
>> proxy servers might do weird things, the user might hit reload/back/forward
>> etc.
>>
>> Allen
>>
>>
>> On 1/22/10 10:06 AM, "Andrew Arnott" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Ideally we could use POST, but avoid the browser warning that information
>> is crossing the SSL world into the non-SSL world.  This might be arguable
>> anyway since sending information can be done with GET or POST, so why warn
>> for POST and not for GET?  If we can get browsers to not warn for POST we're
>> gold.
>>
>> Alternatively, and perhaps more likely, if we're moving in the direction
>> of smart client browser (plugins), and these have been shown to benefit from
>> extensions to the OpenID spec, perhaps we can leverage these to always use
>> POST without displaying the warning to the user somehow.
>> --
>> Andrew Arnott
>> "I [may] not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death
>> your right to say it." - S. G. Tallentyre
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 9:14 AM, John Bradley <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The big problem with POST is RP's that use non-ssl endpoints.
>>
>> One possibility is that the IdP could look at the return_to and discover
>> if it is safe to use POST.
>>
>> In SAML SSO POST is the most common way to return the token.
>>
>> The other option is artifact binding.  That way the nonce is not in the
>> GET,  though you probably wind up with the same effect if the RP tries to
>> resolve the artifact more than once.
>>
>> John B.
>> On 2010-01-22, at 12:39 PM, Andrew Arnott wrote:
>>
>> HTTP GET is supposed to be completely effect-free on the server.  But
>> nonces in OpenID messages violate that aspect of the HTTP spec, since any
>> subsequent GET with the same positive assertion will (or should) fail.  I
>> speculate that some random login failures on StackOverflow <
>> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/32247/cant-login-to-so-with-openid-the-signature-verification-failed/36583#36583>
>>  may be caused because a browser, an accelerator plugin, or a proxy
>> attempted to repeat the assertion-carrying GET request (since that's
>> supposed to be safe), and a subsequent request is the one whose response is
>> displayed in the browser, failing user login.
>>  <
>> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/32247/cant-login-to-so-with-openid-the-signature-verification-failed/36583#36583>
>>
>> POST is a better fit with the HTTP spec for how the message is actually
>> processed on the server.  I know lately we've been looking for ways to cram
>> more data into < 2KB payloads so we can get off POST and onto GET since the
>> user experience is better.  But I wonder if we can put our heads together
>> and figure out how to have our cake and eat it too with this nonce problem.
>>  This error doesn't come up often, but it can come up, apparently does come
>> up, and is a natural side-effect of the way OpenID communicates.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Arnott
>> "I [may] not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death
>> your right to say it." - S. G. Tallentyre
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>

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