Very nice Gabriel. I for one would be happy to share a beer with you or anyone else who is on this list for that matter. I think it's safe to say that anyone one who is on this list is a little special. I think it's also safe to say that we all share a common desire to see this great OS continue to be so. Considering what has happed to OpenSolaris and SUN, It's understandable and forgivable for one to become frustrated and defensive. I certainly feel that way at times.
Mike P.S. Yes, the word "special" can be interpreted in many ways, and they probably all somewhat apply. ;-) On Sun, 2010-11-21 at 16:19 +0200, Gabriel de la Cruz wrote: > Dear Mr Christopher Chan > > Different points of view, remarks, or complains of any short from person to > person shouldn't be understood as serious faults to the honor of anyone, as > long as we do not involve insults. In my opinion all wounds from the > previous fire should be now cured, and I honestly don't think the current > thread even points out to the past. > For whatever that might have cause disturbance for you, I should apologize. > After analyzing the situation for some time I would like to highlight the > possibility of cultural or interdisciplinary misunderstandings in the > back-end of the current conflict. Probably we are misunderstanding certain > responses as more insulting than what they really are for the one expressing > them. It is obvious that we talk the same language, but probably we are > missing the real meaning of things. In Europe the use of irony is very > frequent, for example French are specially difficult in that sense, they > could spend the whole day throwing subliminal irony over you and still be > your best friends. And yes they complain, all the time, for everything. If a > french guy mocks at you by twisting the nicest poetry, you are not supposed > to get angry but probably you are expected to pay back, but always between > the lines, not really fighting back. Another example all the way around > could be expressions like; "chéng zhǎng", if translated as "grow up" could > be pretty humiliating at some places in Europe, while is not as harsh if you > read it in Chinese. > I meet daily with designers and we appreciate non sense commentaries as it > is efficient while brainstorming, as well we like the conversations to be > free from any form of censorship or even moderation as may things could > otherwise just vanish. > The relationship with respect and figures of authority are not the same all > around the world, I never had the pleasure to visit Hong Kong, but I can > share some curiosities from the time I was living in Beijing; I remember I > was hanging around Renmin University during a whole summer, I was meeting > daily one of the persons who were coordinating the foreign students, as I > was joining some interesting lectures and excursions just because of my own > interest. That person asumed I was student because of the fact I was meeting > regularly with the group of Finnish students, and kept all the way treating > me with a very official attitude, he was sweating under the sun with me but > kept all the time a perfectly correct manners, not even showing he needed > water. But one of those extremely hot days, he realized I was a faculty > member, not a student, so he suddenly relaxed completely down and was > finally able to enjoy the time together. He didn't need to show his position > anymore... We had quite much better time after this moment. This might seem > very normal for a chinese, but to me it was all a discovery!. Probably I > have been mistreating my Chinese student for years, treating him as if he > was just my self.. > What I came to say is, we are very different, I do not think there is bad > intention anywhere in this list, people complains when they have to, but > within some limits. Respect does not take the same form everywhere, we > should just apply a *presumption of innocence* concept, no one is guilty > unless we can prove something else. > > If you were around the corner, I would invite you for a beer, what is in my > terms certain form of honor. > > All the best > Gabriel > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Christopher Chan < > christopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote: > > > On Saturday, November 20, 2010 05:40 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: > > > >> Christopher Chan wrote: > >> > >>> On Saturday, November 20, 2010 07:56 AM, Gary wrote: > >>> > >> > >> > >>>> I'm replying to this thread here instead of on the developer lest > >>>> someone issue me a netiquette citation for being off topic. How do you > >>>> quantify something like that? Even if you have some industry confirmed > >>>> sales numbers comparable to IDC tracking desktop PC and notebook > >>>> sales, how do you figure out just how many users a server has > >>>> regardless of its operating system? Does a web server have a half > >>>> dozen users because there are two sysadmins, two content providers, > >>>> and two developers? Or does it have 10 million unique visitors every > >>>> day and therefore have ten million and six users? Whenever I see this > >>>> comment it boggles my mind -- especially when in the context of Unix > >>>> systems regardless of flavor. For example, the commercial OSes that > >>>> have sold licenses based on 10 users or unlimited users. Ten users of > >>>> what? Shell accounts? Ten entries in the password file? What does that > >>>> mean and how can you claim that one OS has more "users" than any > >>>> another? > >>>> > >>>> > >>> I think we can safely assume this to mean installations. Number of > >>> people that actually use the installation would seriously inflate the > >>> numbers. If we go by the latter, you have more than 750 users of > >>> OpenIndiana already from just my installations alone. > >>> > >> > >> Thanks Chris, you've perfectly understook this even without knowing the > >> context I said it. > >> > >> <rant on> > >> In some communities it's becoming really hard to open your mouth without > >> risking to be flamed... > >> </rant off> > >> > > > > In what way did I flame Gary? If expressing my opinion equates flaming then > > I feel very sorry for you. In fact, if you want an example of a flame, maybe > > what seems to be a sarcastic reply higher up seems to smack of a flame more > > than my reply since I did not imply anything about Gary. > > > > > > > > > >> But in the context, I told that if OI wants to innovate, a support from > >> some big companies is a requirement. > >> > >> And to explain what innovate means, in my mind, I'm thinking about > >> things like improving the kernel threads model, or creating new > >> features, *from scratch* as did Sun, features like ZFS, DTrace, zones > >> and so... > >> > >> Examples of inovation mentionned at oi-dev list are adding KDE, or > >> removing the question "are you in a sub net" when using "zlogin -C" for > >> the first time. In my mind, these are just examples of integration > >> solutions, hacks, or similar things, not innovations... > >> > > > > So they are not innovations that sprung out of nothing but when doing > > something new by integrating existing technology to bring about a more > > comprehensive experience sure counts in my book. > > > > > > > > > >> So, to really innovate, at research level, you shall be funded and > >> supported by someone, with a team big enough and with required skills... > >> Not just a small hand of integrators, as it seems we have here. > >> > >> Examples of FOSS supported by big companies are are Fedora, postfix, > >> sendmail (for some time) ... > >> > >> And, as I said, if the number of, say, installations, is very low, it's > >> harder to get some support from big companies... > >> > > > > postfix was written from scratch without any existing user base by Wietse > > for IBM. Upstart in Ubuntu likewise for Canonical. So too reiserfs for an > > example of something in a kernel for DARPA. Linux itself had zero commercial > > support in the beginning. The number of installations or the number of users > > does not necessarily have any contributing factor to whether some 'big > > company' will support the research and development of something. The Linux > > kernel was offered an enhancement feature by a single person who was not a C > > programmer by trade. I am not saying that this is the way to go but that we > > should not preclude innovation (features from scratch as written in your > > book) coming from seemingly impossibly resource constrained sources. > > > > > > > > > >> Just a complement, I'm not expecting OI to remain, in the future, fully > >> compatible with Solaris, as I think it will undoubtely diverge. I expect > >> OI to be just an alternative to Oracle Solaris. In the same way that > >> creating a new OS 100 % compatible with Microsoft Windows is something > >> nobody is looking for. > >> > >> Well, I'll close my mouth, from now... > >> > >> > > We can't have that. If everybody stays mum then how can we get a list of > > ideas for vetting? For now I think we should stop worrying about where > > innovation will come from and concentrate on keeping Openindiana relevant. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list > > OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org > > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list > OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss _______________________________________________ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss