Well, then one of us is "off topic"...
Kevin Rushforth: "We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas: * Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making JavaFX easier to build, better documentation, making it easier to test changes) * Code review policies * API / feature review policies * Code review tools (we currently use webrev, but that isn't set in stone)" On 4 February 2018 at 13:29, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: > John, > > I think you and I are thinking on two different levels. You are > talking about the mechanics of making contributing to JavaFX easier. I > am talking about making the motivations of contributing to JavaFX easier. > > Steve > > Sent from iCloud > > On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:14 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Stephen, > > 1. Swift and your "crystal ball" view of its spectacular success in the > future has nothing whatsoever to do with making contributing to JavaFX > easier. > > 2. Like everyone else who already wants to contribute to JavaFX, we don't > need someone to provide us with "a compelling story as to why developers > should join and contribute". > > 3. TL;DR > > John-Val Rose > (trying to be polite) > > On 4 February 2018 at 12:58, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: > >> John, >> >> The point I am making is that Swift is catching up as a cross >> platform toolkit and is available on: >> >> Mac and iOS, (Full Support) >> https://www.swift.org <https://swift.org> >> >> Android (early) >> >> https://academy.realm.io/posts/swift-on-android/ >> >> >> Linux: (early) >> >> >> https://itsfoss.com/use-swift-linux/ >> >> >> Windows: (early) >> >> >> https://www.infoworld.com/article/3067364/open-source-tools/ >> swift-for-windows-arrives-at-last-but-as-an-unofficial-port.html >> >> >> >> Browser: (very Preliminary) >> >> >> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46572144/compile-swift-to-webassembly> >> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46572144/compile-swift-to-webassembly >> >> Server Side: (Mac and Linux) >> https://www.swift.org <https://swift.org/> >> >> >> So my point is that soon Swift will steal the Cross Platform Mantra from >> Java. It is happening very quickly and Swift has great graphics and >> gaming capabilities as well. >> >> >> Why would a new developer start with Java? If we are looking 10 years >> out, I think Apple is coming head on. >> >> >> Also when you say this thread is about the ease with which the community >> can contribute to JavaFX, it begs the question "what kinds of >> contribution?". Are we here to push the platform forward and contribute >> new ideas or just do bug fixes? >> >> >> Swift is a real threat to Java being the cross platform development King. >> Java can hold on to that story for only a couple more years. It surely >> won't last. >> >> >> Dart also runs on Android and iOS via Flutter, has Server side Dart >> option, runs in the Browser very well today with full support for SVG and >> Canvas -- and if WebGPU becomes a Web standard, Google will most certainly >> support it. >> >> >> Looking toward the future, if Java doesn't run in the browser, doesn't >> support games on any platform, and only works on iOS and Android via Gluon >> VM, and does it with only limited graphics capability, then I think >> JavaFX will be a tough sell in the future. Even tougher than it is today. >> >> >> If the point of the discussion is to build the developer community, I >> think we first need a compelling story as to why developers should join and >> contribute. >> >> >> The fact that I am using Dart and JavaFX, and I am seriously >> considering if I should switch to Dart everywhere, or to Dart and Swift >> (instead of Dart and FX) means JavaFX doesn't have the lead we think it >> does. I love JavaFX and would love to contribute, but it's hard when I >> myself am looking at other options mainly because I also want my software >> to be here 10 years from now, and I am seriously questioning if JavaFX will >> keep up. >> >> >> I think there is a small window of opportunity for JavaFX to make a stand >> before it is permanently relegated to a Server side language. This cross >> platform story won't fly too much longer, especially when Swift starts to >> run everywhere and in the browser too, and if Google does the same thing >> with Dart, and they both support games, where will Java be? >> >> >> If we are looking 10 years out then surely this will happen. The big >> question is what will we do, and where will JavaFX be? >> >> >> Steve Desofi >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 03, 2018, at 03:09 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> Stephen - I’m not quite following you. >> >> This thread is about improving the ease with which the community can >> contribute to JavaFX. >> >> I see no point in comparing JavaFX (a cross platform graphics toolkit for >> JVM languages) with a Swift (a general purpose programming language that >> runs on Apple hardware). >> >> On 4 Feb 2018, at 00:18, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: >> >> This begs the question, why has the bar been set too low? I am new to >> this community and don’t know much history other than a couple weeks of bug >> fix messages flying by. >> >> I am not even clear of what our role and purpose is supposed to be. Are >> we here for only bug fixes, and follow the direction and flow that is >> already set, or as contributors would we be allowed to contribute to the >> goals and direction of JavaFX? >> >> FX is a good platform with great potential, but it biggest deficiency is >> “mind share”. People don’t see too many real world accomplishments that >> knock your socks off. Most people use web and phone to run apps. PC and >> Desktop apps are a small part of the market. >> >> Gluon has just recently released gluon VM and Gluon Mobile to allow FX on >> phones and tablets. >> >> The problem I see is once I can use FX on phones how will it compete with >> Swift? >> >> True that “write once, run everywhere” is important and Java has a lead >> over Swift. But Swift has a lead on capability. >> >> In the end Swift will catch up with Java in the “write once, run >> anywhere” mantra. Will FX catch up with Swift in graphics by then? >> >> Java has a lead in many areas, but if we look 10 years out, it seems >> clear to me that Java needs to raise the bar or face extinction as a client >> side development platform or forever be confined to the server. >> >> This is why I need some clarification as to what our role as contributors >> is going to be. I don’t believe an open source project can flourish if >> the contributors have no say or stake in the direction. >> >> Steve Desofi >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:55 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I think Kevin outlined in his opening post what would be considered "out >> of scope". >> >> However, I agree with you on the basic premise that, in general, the bar >> has been set way too low as to the potential use cases and performance of >> JavaFX. In fact, I firmly believe that games & complex visualisations etc. >> *should* be possible with JavaFX given that most of the heavy lifting is >> being done by the GPU. It's just that, at the moment, the scene graph >> rendering pipeline is significantly slower than it could be and it is for >> this reason that we don't find applications using advanced 3D graphics & >> animations etc. (like we see in games) being built with JavaFX. It's just >> not possible when the node count reaches even a very small threshold. >> >> This is a topic I have tried to discuss numerous times and also believe >> that I can improve the performance of the scene graph rendering in a very >> tangible way. >> >> If things pan-out as they are being described and becoming & being a >> contributor is simplified to the extent where it justifies me devoting a >> large chunk of my time to OpenJFX, this is probably what I would want to >> work on first. >> >> >> Graciously, >> >> John-Val Rose >> >> On 3 February 2018 at 14:07, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: >> >>> I don’t understand why discussing new graphics capabilities such as >>> gaming or WebGPU, etc is so off limits. Can you explain that? >>> >>> Steve Desofi >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> > On Feb 2, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Kevin Rushforth < >>> kevin.rushfo...@oracle.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Looks like we have some good discussion so far. >>> > >>> > I see a few themes emerging (build/test, sandbox on GitHub, ease of >>> filing bugs, etc) along with some discussion on graphics performance (which >>> is fine as long as the discussion doesn't veer too far into discussing >>> specific graphics features). >>> > >>> > I'll let more folks chime in before I reply to anything specifically >>> (and I'll be offline over the weekend anyway). >>> > >>> > Thanks! >>> > >>> > -- Kevin >>> > >>> >> >> >
