> That's all great in theory - but it's not always like > that - while there > may be support for one version of a device, if that > device gets up-reved > the whole chipset can change (just look at how > wireless drivers are > these days). For Small to Medium enterprises it's not > always possible to > purchase the best devices, or even Sun hardware, and > then when they go > to purchase something they can afford - all to often > it using the latest > versions of h/w which quite frequently is not > supported by Solaris X86 - > so what do they do - buy someone else's scrap because > it happens to have > the supported devices they want?
That is really unjust to what's on the market today. If you go to http://store.sun.com/ you can get a really nice machine, be it server or a desktop, for under $2,000 USD. Sun has an Opteron based workstation for $895 USD, and both Opteron and UltraSPARC offerings for under $2,000 USD. You go to CompUSA or any other type of computer store and you can easily spend more than $2,000 USD on a vanilla PC without batting an eyelash! And now you're telling me that small and medium sized businesses can't afford gear. Hey, I'm in the same position as these small/medium guys, I'm starting a business and I don't actually have millions of dollars at my disposal (nor do I plan to finance it from some VC firm). Sometimes it's ebay gear, sometimes it's brand new servers. But it's really unrealistic to say that 'small companies can't afford it'. > What you suggest is entirely unrealistic for everyone > - and most likely > why there is considerable interest in getting a > device driver community > under way - and the more that Open Solaris is being > used should also > encourage h/w developers to be more encouraged in > providing the drivers > themselves - with our help. We are in agreement on this - Solaris needs to continue the momentum and get even more drivers. > The problem is that you had to do this at all - it > should be possible to > get these as part of Solaris, especially the common > stuff (which I'm > assuming it is if someone went to enough trouble to > write it). Then why don't you hire on people who are making this possible, or why aren't you (Sun) integrating their stuff into Solaris? What, is it so hard to give these people a cut (in case they demand it)? Again, where's the problem??? I for one will be happy if Solaris reaches such critical mass so that most off the shelf hardware works 'out-of-the-box', but at the same time I don't see anything wrong with the consumer moving their behind a little bit and doing some work as well. "Help me help you", that should be the ticket, right? > I totally agree on this - but you have to be > realistic and accept that > sometimes it simply does not work out of the box, and > things should > easier than they are at present. Then I have to ask, who do you expect to be your target audience? Is the goal to actually dumb Solaris down? > The distro maintainers (and Solaris is going to be a > distro of > OpenSolaris) are the ones that decide it. Distro maintainers? Anybody can become a "distro maintainer" now, if you know what I mean. > There will be times that you would want this > (complete machine upgrade) > - but in the more general sense the distro would > decide this and simply > not do it if (as in Solaris) it is likely to cause > major customer > problems. Most of this is focused on the server, but > for the desktop > user - quite often they don't care as long as they > have a very > functional (does not just mean eye-candy) desktop. It will be an order of magnitude harder to present users with a consistent, stable desktop if you're going to be doing 'major work under the hood' when 'updates' are applied. But, we will see. > Again, I think this depends the uses of the OE - > server or desktop - > Open Solaris is aimed at getting recognition - not > just making money - > the more people that see Open Solaris the better - > and this also goes > for the notion of a Debian distro - you have a choice > - if you want How do you expect desktop users to get exposure to Solaris when the only part of Solaris would be the kernel? They would be getting more exposure to Debian in that case. I keep saying this, you're trying to fit Solaris into a Linux model, where Linux is the kernel and userland is some salad of who knows what. Everybody just seems to forget that the Solaris comes with his own userland, and that userland is so good that it's one of his biggest stregths and selling points. > stability take Solaris (as I say it's a distro based > on OpenSolaris), if > you want the latest of everything - take another > distro (eg. SchilliX, > Debian or whatever other distros might come along). That's what it looks like will happen! I'll be sticking with Solaris which looks like Solaris, is stable like Solaris, and most importantly [I]works like Solaris[/I]. > But you are totally blinded by the "production" > environment - Solaris is > aimed at that market, yes, but something like Debian > is not - and as I > say it's about choices... Windows XP is a production version of a desktop OS. > Personally I am one of those people that likes to be > on the Bleeding > Edge - for my desktops - so I would be only too > delighted to see a less > stable distro that provided this but even better be > based on Open > Solaris - not Linux. What's the purpose of being on the bleeding edge for the sake of being on the bleeding edge? At the end of the day, computers are there to be used to do tasks and work for us, not the other way around. I see that a lot by Linux users, they install one distro, then the next day, another one, then the third day, something else. [I]when do you actually do anything with the thing if you spend the whole time just installing different stuff[/I]? > That's a totally unjust statement - most developers > are hackers at > heart, even professional ones - and there are many > professional Engineering isn't hacking. > developers that give their time to Linux (are you > suggesting that Linus > Torvalds is not a professional developer??). OK, Linus Torvalds is definitiely a total and complete amateur, there is no doubt about it. Just look at the design choices he makes. And no, I don't care to expand on that, since it's been gnawed on a trillion times. > there are probably some > inexperienced developers out there on Linux but > that's why they are > there to learn - if we introduce Open Solaris to > them, then we can > encourage them to learn even more - if the interest > is there encourage > it (most parents will already know this). This I agree with, completely. But that also means that the other side has to be open for learning, in which case we have no problem. However, you can only lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink. > >What exactly do you find "not so usable"? > > > >Is it the fact that: > > > >a) you have to do `su -` > > > >or > > > >b) type in `pkgadd -d /path/to/package [all|package > name]` or pick a choice from a MENU presented upon > executing the command > > > >or c) something else (lack of eye candy GUI, for > example)? > > > > > > > Yes exactly - why should the average desktop user > have to do this? Why not? You just can't make a computer be like an appliance, no matter how much you try -- general computers are simply too versatile and too complex to be dumbed down to a level of a TV device. Since a mistake had already been made to introduce computing to the masses (a very big mistake in my opinion), sooner or later those masses will have to become computer literate, no matter how much easier you try to make it for them. > That's exactly what is broken on Solaris. Everyday > tasks should not > require you to drop to the command-line. But UNIX can't exist without the command line. Command line in UNIX is your life. If the command line is gone (which is conceptually the direction in which you want to go), UNIX will stop being UNIX, it will be something else. Personally I find this extremely disturbing. > Again I think you're missing the point - if you are a > DESKTOP user, you I AM a desktop user, and I USE Solaris as my DESKTOP for everyday tasks, every single day! > MANY _DESKTOP_ users, even power desktop users, have > trouble with the > command-line - why should a user have to run a > command-line tool to > change their wireless network settings? or to create > a printer queue for > a USB printer? These are everyday tasks for a user Because it's an order of magnitude faster than clicking around in a GUI? Because it's simpler than clicking on obscure checkboxes, radio buttons and tabs? Because that way they'd learn to understand the system better and more efficiently? We're talking about a dillema that the computer industry has been trying to solve for the last 30+ years, WITHOUT SUCCESS. No single OS has been able to make it work seamlessly for Joe User; [i]if you're clueless, you're clueless[/I]. > (especially a mobile > user). You seen to forget that the majority of > people that use desktops > are not even trained in IT - they are just given a > machine, with a word > processor to type up documents, etc. Then they shouldn't be changing their system settings, should they? Most people don't service their washers and dryers when they break, they call somebody who's supposed to be qualified to do that for them. What I'm saying here is, it could go both ways. I stated already that it's a 50-50 proposition. That also means that the desktop arena can have production as well. > You obviously don't understand the market in which IT > operates - it's > not entirely server based! Most of the employees in No, it's not, you're right. But the big money is in the server market, not the vanilla PC. The profit margins are so small nowdays that you don't stand a chance of starting up another brand and making money by selling your own PC. An understanding of economics is crucial before even embarking on this discussion. > Sun use desktops, > usually running Solaris, for their everyday work - > they can manage it > fine most of the time but that shouldn't preclude > them from being able > to have better functionality like hotpluggable > devices that just work. Agreed, stuff should just work. What we disgaree on is the method of 'just working', or even the road to 'getting it to just work' > Again - DESKTOP users! Just because Solaris now became free doesn't mean all hell should break loose. > Totally wrong - MOST people use desktops (certainly > not 50-50), not > servers in everyday life - why do you think Windows > has just a large > volume - certainly not just servers Are you telling > me that enterprises > have more servers than desktops!. Are you telling me No, I am not telling you that. I do however believe that's a different segment. > that you would > consider your laptop to be a server??? Maybe you have Yes, absolutely! In fact I was just saying the other day that it'd be really useful if Solaris got ported to Palm some day. That way I'd have a portable UNIX server to haul around in my pocket. I could use it as both my organizer *AND* in a server capacity - it'd be far more versatile than this PalmOS thing that runs on it now! I could, for example, go to a customer's site and do a JumpStart(TM) install of that desktop you're talking about. I still firmly believe that Sun's vision of "network is the computer" is the right one. Internet is a good proof of that. And in that vision, the desktop as you know it and want it is simply an obsolete thing of the past. > >But as somebody pointed out, all the goodies are > here, in Solaris, not >>over there<< in Linux, so > either you learn about Solaris, or you go back. Why > was it OK to spend the time and effort learning > Linux, but it's suddenly not OK that you actually > have to LEARN REAL UNIX? > > > > > > > Again with the insults - is that how you manage to > work? Are you one of > those BOFH that people speak of? Just a minute here! I hold that for a perfectly valid question. Why was it OK to go through the learning process with Linux, but it's not OK to do the same with a real UNIX like Solaris? > What does it matter to you if some people decide to > have yet another > distro based on Open Solaris - you obviously aren't > interested in one so > if you don't like it then don't use it, simple as > that. I'm very much interested in an OpenSolaris distro which would be a next generation of SOLARIS -- not next generation of Debian, Gentoo or something else! In fact, just as Dennis Clarke would put it, "I'm passionate about it." > So let's teach them - Linux is growing up too, are > you telling me that > you came out of the womb knowing all? No, you had to > learn from > experience - Linux has learned a lot, it's made > mistakes too, but so > does everyone. Many of these engineers are really > interested in learning > - so let's teach them how to do things properly, and > I'm sure in the > process we can also learn a lot from them. I'm all for teaching, but we will see if they're [I]willing to learn[/I]. Sure doesn't look like it at this point. Seems like they're more interested in [I]turning things completely upside down[/I]. This message posted from opensolaris.org _______________________________________________ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
