Well, I know what you mean. But, I'll take my chances, because as I said before, MetaLink Note:139327.1 didn't convince me at all that "OCOPY" is any better than regular "NT Copy" command.
Besides, I am keeping two generations of backup (the latest and the one prior to that), so if anything goes wrong with the latest backup image of the db file, I can always recover, using older backup and archived RedoLogs from both backups. Also, our customers wouldn't wait for Oracle support , and having two generations of backups, I can resolve potential issues much faster than ... Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 12:30 PM > Igor, > > That sounds good, but what is Oracle Support going to say when you call them > for support on a database recovery and you mention that you used NT COPY?? > Your hosed, if there attitude is you should have used OCOPY so we can't help > you. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:26 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > Ok, I guess, I owe some explanation here, since I've got a lot of spanking > (replies, some rather sarcastic) regarding this issue. > My original note comes from my "real life" experience, so I'm still standing > behind it. > Sorry, it'll be kind of long, but if you are really interested... > > Couple years ago, when we were preparing first release of our product, I > read of course about "NT Copy" versus "Oracle Ocopy". > Still I decided to test it, because not always I trust what I read, and I > like to get proof myself. > Testing of online ("hot") backup/recovery scenario showed, that using "NT > Copy" command in backup scripts is perfectly fine, when creating backup set > of files on the disk. And there is no problem restoring from this backup. > Now this "disk backup" set of files could be saved on tape, using NTBACKUP > (that's the one, that really can not copy file, if it's opened by some other > program. But that's not the case with prepared in advance "disk backup"). > "NT Copy" has no problems copying files opened already by Oracle, and backup > is consistent, as long of course as I am using "alter tablespace <name> > begin backup" before copying relevant files and "alter tablespace <name> end > backup" after finishing files copy. > So, those scripts (using "NT Copy") were put into production, and now have > been used for more than two years on more than hundred installations/sites > (the number keeps growing). > From time to time, our field engineers are bringing back to me sets of > online (can not use "cold" backup - our systems should run 24*7, I'm not > saying they are, but we are trying to minimize downtime) backed up files (db > files and archived RedoLog files), and I recover them with no problem (we > need this, to test how the upgrade to next release of our product will run > against "real" customers data). > > Now, about MetaLink Note:139327.1 > It says: > <quote> > Ocopy opens the file using CreateFile() with the FILE_SHARE_READ and > FILE_SHARE_WRITE flags. This allows writing to continue while we take the > backup. Inconsistencies in the backup are repaired by applying archived > redo during recovery. The 'copy' command from NT doesn't use these flags > since it wants to prevent writes to the file while the copy is taking > place. > </quote> > > I don't think, it's very accurate, and here is why: > When during online backup I run "NT copy" against db file, the file is > already opened by Oracle (at moment, when I "open" the database). > So, even if "NT copy" opens file without FILE_SHARE_READ and > FILE_SHARE_WRITE flags, all it means is that "Subsequent open operations on > the object will fail" (quote from NT docs). I want you to notice, it says > "Subsequent open operations" not "Subsequent write/read operations". So, > all it does is prohibiting some other program/process from "opening" the > file. But Oracle, as I mentioned, has this file already opened, and it is > perfectly capable of reading/writing this file. > Of course, the image of the saved file will be "fuzzy", and that's why when > recovering from online backup we are applying archived RedoLog files (which > getting written much more intensely during online backup). > > As for Peter McLarty note, that he "never knew that NT copy could manage > keeping the CSN number in sync", > well it ("NT Copy") does not have to (neither does "Oracle Ocopy") keep CSN > number in sync. > Oracle updates file header with checkpoint SCN, when we issue "alter > tablespace <name> begin backup". Then until "alter tablespace <name> end > backup", file header will cease updating. And SCN, written in the beginning > provides the info, which archived RedoLog files should be used for recovery. > > Now, please correct me, if I'm wrong. > > Igor Neyman, OCP DBA > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- Original Message ----- > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 6:47 PM > > > > > Wrong. NT 'COPY' has no problems copying 'opened' oracle db files. > > > I'm using it in 'hot backup' scripts on many dozens systems, and it > > works > > > fine. > > > > Igor, you sure about that? > > > > There are backup packages (such as Backup Exec ) that use their > > own file open copy program to avoid using copy.exe. > > > > Have you restored any of these backups made with copy? > > > > Jared > > > > Note:139327.1 > > Subject: > > Differences between Windows NT COPY and Oracle > > OCOPY When Doing Backups > > > > Creation Date: 03-APR-2001 > > Last Revision Date: 04-DEC-2001 > > > > PURPOSE > > A comparison of the differences between the Windows NT "copy" commnad, > > and > > the Oracle "ocopy" command. Which should be used during an online > > backup? > > > > SCOPE & APPLICATION > > DBAs with databases on the Windows NT platform. > > > > The Differences between Windows NT COPY and Oracle OCOPY When Doing > > Backups: > > > > > ============================================================================ > > > > When doing an online backup, should you use the Windows NT COPY command, > > or the > > Oracle OCOPY command? > > > > While doing online backups you should use OCOPY, or Oracle7 EBU, or > > Oracle8 > > (and later) RMAN. With the OCOPY command you could copy to a backup > > directory > > on the hard drive but cannot use OCOPY to copy a file to tape. The other > > option > > if you do not want to use ocopy to perform your backup as this does > > require a > > lot of disk space is EBU/RMAN that comes with Oracle. Depending on your > > Oracle > > version, the distribution includes a utility called EBU (Oracle7) or RMAN > > > > (Oracle8 and later) that can be used for online recovery as well. You > > will need > > to use a media management product to move the data from RMAN to tape. > > Legato > > Storage Manager is provided however there are other products that are > > supported > > to be used with this tool. > > > > To backup you will need to use the utility delivered by Oracle, the ocopy > > > > command. Utilities like the NT commands copy, xcopy CANNOT be used to > > back up. > > The Windows NT feature to be aware of is that NT Backup does not allow > > files in > > use to be copied, so you must use the OCOPY utility that Oracle provides > > to > > copy the open database files to another disk location. Since OCOPY cannot > > copy > > files directly to tape, you will then need to use NT Backup or copy or a > > similar utility to copy the files to tape, as required. > > > > OCOPY allows writing to continue while the backup is running. The NT COPY > > is a > > closed copy and the files may be marked either as "fuzzy" or "corrupt." > > Ocopy > > opens the file using CreateFile() with the FILE_SHARE_READ and > > FILE_SHARE_WRITE > > flags. This allows writing to continue while we take the backup. > > Inconsistencies in the backup are repaired by applying archived redo > > during > > recovery. The 'copy' command from NT doesn't use these flags since it > > wants to > > prevent writes to the file while the copy is taking place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Igor Neyman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > 01/24/02 01:05 PM > > Please respond to ORACLE-L > > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > cc: > > Subject: Re: Backup Strategy > > > > > > I took a quick look at this paper, and found right away, that it's not > > very > > accurate, at least in one issue. > > i.e., it states : > > < quote> > > The Windows NT command COPY can be used to create a cold backup of a > > database. It cannot be used to make a > > hot backup. Attempting to perform a hot backup with COPY will usually > > result > > in an error message being generated > > as the COPY command fails - during a hot backup the database is running > > and > > thus the database files are locked by > > the Oracle database process, and COPY cannot work on a file that is so > > locked. > > < /quote> > > > > Wrong. NT 'COPY' has no problems copying 'opened' oracle db files. > > I'm using it in 'hot backup' scripts on many dozens systems, and it works > > fine. > > > > Don't know about the accuracy of the rest of the paper, didn't have time > > to > > read it all. > > > > Igor Neyman, OCP DBA > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 7:35 AM > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/tbcox23/ > > > > > > Go here and get the paper. > > > > > > Regards > > > Venkat > > > -- > > > > > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:25:17 > > > Bunyamin K. Karadeniz wrote: > > > >If possible , I want one copy too. > > > >Bunyamin > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 12:30 PM > > > > > > > > > > > >> Can you send me one (NT backup strategy) > > > >> > > > >> Regards, > > > >> Ramesh D Papnoi > > > >> Oracle DBA @ Chemtex Global Engineers Pvt. Ltd., Mumbai, India > > > >> (BrainBench & Brainbuzz Certified Oracle 8/8i DBA & Developer) > > > >> http://www22.Brinkster.com/rpapnoi > > > >> > > > >> ---------- Original Text ---------- > > > >> > > > >> To: internet["Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] > > > >> > > > >> Please send me one. (NT) Thank, > > > >> > > > >> grace wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > can u also send me a copy on backup strategy on nt. > > > >> > thanks > > > >> > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 3:25 PM > > > >> > > > > >> > > Hello Hamid > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I would like to have this paper as well. > > > >> > > We are now revising our Backup strategy. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Yechiel Adar, Mehish Computer Services > > > >> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > > > From: Mohan, Ross [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> > > > Sent: Tue, January 22, 2002 6:35 PM > > > >> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > >> > > > Subject: RE: Backup Strategy > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Hamid, > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Would you be willing to forward a copy of > > > >> > > > this paper? > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Thanks, > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Ross Mohan > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 12:27 PM > > > >> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Hi List, > > > >> > > > I have a white paper for Backup Strategy on Microsoft NT but I > > am > > > >> > looking > > > >> > > > for Backup Strategy for Oracle8i on Solaris, If anybody have > > any > > doc > > > >or > > > >> > > > link > > > >> > > > I realy appreciate. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Hamid Alavi > > > >> > > > Office 818 737-0526 > > > >> > > > Cell 818 402-1987 > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > The information contained in this message and any attachments > > is > > > >> > intended > > > >> > > > only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is > > > >addressed, > > > >> > and > > > >> > > > may contain information that is PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL and > > exempt > > > >from > > > >> > > > disclosure under applicable law. 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You may > > > >> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > > > >> -- > > > >> Author: > > > >> INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >> > > > >> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > > > >> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing > > Lists > > > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > > >> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > > >> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > > >> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > > >> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > > > > >-- > > > >Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > > > >-- > > > >Author: Bunyamin K. Karadeniz > > > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > >Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > > > >San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > > >to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > > >the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > > >(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > > >also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > > > -- > > > Author: C.S.Venkata Subramanian > > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > > > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > > -- > > Author: Igor Neyman > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > > > > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > -- > Author: Igor Neyman > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > -- > Author: Grabowy, Chris > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Igor Neyman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).