----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Janku" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:23 AM
Subject: orion-list Re: orion V2001 #17
Hi Pepe :-),
[snip]
> I pointed out that
> Roland Bergmeiers book on this - quoted several times by Dierk van den
> Berg as the best text on the matter - maintains that the relvant passage
in
> Josephus bell. comes form the "hellenistic Jewish source he is supposed to
> have used in common with Philo.
ie a Hellenistic-Jewish 'essaioi' description as common source ([B]ergmeier
p.
48) of Philo's prob 75-91, apol 1-18 and contempl 2.19-24.27-32.34.37.38.
40.63.64.66.70.72.73.89 and Josephus' Ant 15,373; 18.21 and Bell 2,119.
120.122.123.128.129-133.136.138.139.141.142.159.161 (B p. 46 ff.).
> If this were so, why didn`t Philo seem to
be
> aware of the perception of Essenes as not being Jewish?
A Hellenistic-Jewish description implicates Jewishness; there is no such
'perception of Essenes as not being Jewish'.
The completely gentile sounding anecdotes bell 1,78-80 (ant 13.311-313)
and bell 2,112f. (ant 17,345-348) Bergemeier localizes in the historical
work of Nicolaos of Damascos (B p. 21).
[snip]
> Anyhow, if ( a big if) they both shared a common source on Essenes (which
> is not necessary: the parallels are explainable against Bergmeier,
why?
> by the
> similar Greek audience of the two Jewish-hellenistic writers) than it is
> probable that Josephus` need to point out that Essenes were Jewish by
birth.
only in connection with the material of Nicolaos.
> comes from his own pen and corresponds to the awareness of a problem
which
> had appeared between the time of Philo and his own.
why?
>Ergo, it is as natural
> to assert, that conversions da taken in the meantime such proportions,
that
> Essenes could no longer be percieved automatically as Jewish.
... under the presupposition of the above axiom...
[snip]
> This could also explain why he
called
> himself a Pharisee, whereas the bulk and the tendency of his discription
of
> the 3, than 4 schools of thought is evidently biased in favor of Essenes,
> which makes him really, if anything, an Essene.
"The Essenes news of Josephus (are) no records of a witness but
accounts of source-texts" (B p. 21).
> To Dierk:due to the imprecision of the terms and names involved you can`t
> know for sure wether some essenes at least didn`t come under the lex
sicarii
> et veneficis.
Correct, but they are not explicit called 'assassins' in literature, ie the
reversal
seems to be inadmissible.
Dierk
For private reply, e-mail to "Dierk van den Berg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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