On Tue, 7 May 2002, Reinaldo Martinez wrote:
> Regarding Shamash (the sun) in Jewish cult,
>
> Lupia and Horowitz properly pointed out evidences that
> I couldn`t place better.
>
> I guess that many would find horrified at the
> possibilities that the "Amen" we still use in prayers
> and "Adon" (the Lord) could come from Egyptian
> "Amen-Ra" and "Athon" of Amarna (Akhet.Athon), but the
> possibility is real.
Hardly! If you show me that in egyptian texts Amen is used as it is in
Hebrew, biblical and later, I might consider it rather than an explanation
based only on Hebrew. Also, as long as Adon is a simple equivalent of the
commonly used semitic baal as a divine epithet, I see no reason to go to
egyptian for an etymology, assuming you can, inthe first place, show that
the phonological equivalency is sound. In general, when there is a
perfectly good explanation for a word's meaning within its language and
cognate language, there is little justification for going to another, not
even related language to explain it. Also, as my colleague Chayim Cohen
constantly points out, semantic equivalence and equivalent usage is more
important for establishing the meaning of words than etymology, and how
much more so when the etymological relationship based on rules of
phonology is dubious.
Victor
> > Honest and frank facing of fact
is always needed in > science. > > R. MArtinez
>
> --- orion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > orion Tuesday, May 7 2002
> > Volume 2002 : Number 018
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 15:51:37 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: John Lupia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: orion-list Re: orion V2002 #17
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Victor Horovitz wrote:
> > Excuse me for being blunt, but your assertion is
> > ridiculous. The semitic word for sun is $VmV$. It is
> > shared by all semitic languages (Heb $eme$, Akkadian
> > $am$su, Ugaritic $p$, Arabic sams, etc). The
> > Akkadian
> > nominal form would be $am$u with the nominative
> > ending. The form $ama$ is the absolute form used in
> > personal names, so $ama$ is simply the way one
> > adresses the sun (Mr. Sun). THe word for the
> > heavenly
> > luminary precedes its deification, and does not
> > derive
> > from it.
> >
> >
> > Dear Victor:
> >
> > The fact that the name $ama$ could mean Mr. Sun
> > presupposes that it could also have meant Lord Sun
> > ranking him among the nobility, in a monarchial
> > structure, where, perhaps, $ama$ was its king. We
> > cannot rule out a form of pagan idolatry where a
> > deceased king is honored and considered the rising
> > sun
> > in the eternal life. In this case then the origin
> > of
> > the name does not precludes that it was involved in
> > its very origin as a religio-mythic cult of a
> > primogenetor king who eternally lives and reigns and
> > who can give us enlightenment. Judaism seems to
> > have
> > broken off from this cultic sun-worship and imputed
> > to
> > the one-uncreated-God the faculties and personality
> > of
> > $ama$ and established monotheism as an outgrowth and
> > a
> > response to this.
> >
> > Victor Horovitz wrote:
> > Although the sun may have been adored in Israelite
> > religion, biblical or post biblical, as has been
> > asserted by many scholars (see, for example Morton
> > Smith's article on Helios in Palestine in the
> > Orlinsky
> > Volume of Eretz Israel, or Hadley? articles and
> > books), your argument is simply wrong, backward, and
> > irrelevant.
> >
> > I agree that the Israeli sun worshipping would be
> > irrelevant since it would have been post Sumerian
> > period which first gave evidence to this phenomenon.
> >
> > Conseuently, Judaism would have been a development
> > as
> > an outgrowth from Sumerian culture, which appears to
> > have lapsed back into its former Sumerian form from
> > time to time.
> >
> > Victor Horovitz wrote:
> > As for adoring the rising sun, in particular, I
> > might
> > refer you to the famous Sun Disk inscription of
> > Nebobaladan (King, Babylonian Boundary Stones no.
> > 36)
> > which tells that the statue of $ama$ was lost, and
> > until it was "miraculously" rediscovered, it was
> > substituted for by a "niphu". Now, niphu designates
> > a
> > sundisk model, round and decorated with a four
> > pointed
> > star with wavy lines characteristic of $ama$ between
> > each arm of the star. If you look at a picture of
> > the
> > tablet you will see such a niphu. What is relevant
> > to
> > your suggestion about this, is that the Akkadian
> > verb
> > napahu, from which niphu is derived, means to break
> > out in flames, and also "sun rise", so if we may
> > learn
> > anything from this it may be that the accepted
> > non-anthropormorphic symbol of the Babylonian Sun
> > God
> > $ama$ was a model of the rising sun.
> > Victor
> >
> > Yes, Victor, $ama$ would have been associated with
> > the
> > sun and time, hence he would be considered as
> > "father-time" or "the eternal one", or, perhaps
> > called, "Lord Sun-Rise". It is from this origin
> > that
> > it appears that Judaism was born. Substituting or
> > replacing "Ehad" the "One" the eternal and uncreated
> > God, who is the source of all creation, with $ama$,
> > forms the new monotheistic religion of Judaism. The
> > first Jews had adored the sun but as the "Father"
> > who
> > could enlighten us and give revelations. He could
> > speak through prophets, kings, priests, and reveal
> > himself to the human family. The disolvement
> > between
> > monolitheistic cult worship with the sun and without
> > it seems to have drifted in and out suggesting
> > priests
> > from different schools existed and that the high
> > priests were selected shifting between these
> > different
> > schools from time to time.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > John
> >
> >
> > =====
> > John N. Lupia
> > 501 North Avenue B-1
> > Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> > http://health.yahoo.com
> > For private reply, e-mail to John Lupia
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > -
> > Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 05:28:11 +0300 (IDT)
> > From: avigdor horovitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: orion-list Re: orion V2002 #17
> >
> > Dear John,
> > I find your comments as off base as the original
> > suggestion I commented
> > on, and inall due respect for your imagination I
> > respectfully dismiss it
> > out of hand.
> > Please note that the sumerian sungod was named UTU,
> > the Sumerian word for
> > sun. May I suggest that you do some reading on the
> > development of
> > Mesopotamian religion. Start with Jacobsen,
> > Treasures of Darkness.
> > Victor
> > And now I will go all the way down to the bottom of
> > this letter to let teh
> > trailor loose. It's a long way down!
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 6 May 2002, John Lupia wrote:
> >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Victor Horovitz wrote:
> > > Excuse me for being blunt, but your assertion is
> > > ridiculous. The semitic word for sun is $VmV$. It
> > is
> > > shared by all semitic languages (Heb $eme$,
> > Akkadian
> > > $am$su, Ugaritic $p$, Arabic sams, etc). The
> > Akkadian
> > > nominal form would be $am$u with the nominative
> > > ending. The form $ama$ is the absolute form used
> > in
> > > personal names, so $ama$ is simply the way one
> > > adresses the sun (Mr. Sun). THe word for the
> > heavenly
> > > luminary precedes its deification, and does not
> > derive
> > > from it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Victor:
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> _________________
For private reply, e-mail to avigdor horovitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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