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From: Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 2:44 AM To: Beowulf Subject: Re: FW: [grendelreport] Qantas jet drama 'due to oxygen explosion' It is apparent, from the consensus of opinions here, if nothing else, that this is a cover story that makes no sense. When you have an obvious cover story, you are obviously covering something. Here are two good tests of veracity: 1) where are the public photos of the debris, the damage and even the location of these tanks and their remaining twins on the other side of the plane? Where are the images of the supposed "cargo bay" in which these tanks are alleged to have blown? Some reports suggest that they stand vertically and either dropped or fell, causing a rupture, but illustrations I have located show them mounted horizontally. It could well be that there is a unique arrangement for Qantas due to its need for larger tanks, necessitated by flying over mountain ranges where you could not go below the required 10K altitude to get on-board oxygen quickly in an emergency. It could also be that the graphic I located is not accurate for the -400 series models. Fair enough, but that still does not explain how an explosion of this magnitude was caused. If officials are going to tell us that O2 bottles blew up, they might at least show pictures and explain why they think this happened. If corrosion is a contributing factor, then simply put out a photo or two. Doesn't work if you are hiding something. We are told that no explosive residue was found. Interesting that they would claim this when they know full well that we have been banning common household toiletries and other liquids from being brought on board the planes due to their potential use as an improvised explosive. It would have been smarter for them to say that some passenger left a pressurized can of shaving cream in his luggage and it just happened to be a rare example of something missed upon baggage inspection. As to the lack of explosive residue, that only matters if the explosive you are looking for a residue from happens to be a conventional explosive compound. What if there was some other rig devised to use simple but reactive compounds that would be highly explosive in an oxygen-rich environment. Lithium, sodium, phosphorous and a few other elements react violently, even explosive upon contact with water or air. Simply rig it so that two such materials come into contact at some point in the flight, and the reaction can be explosive without leaving a hint of "explosives." Other correspondents here have mentioned how oxygen bottles rupture without shrapnel. True. For debris to be "scattered" throughout the hold, it means that something other than a simple tank failure is at play here. By the way, there is something else that struck me this afternoon, in scanning the latest non-news on this incident. I had captured a photo of the plane several days ago but just somehow overlooked its significance at the time. The 747-400 has a much more robust design that puts the stress of the joint of the upper and lower decks much further back on the top of the fuselage. The 747-100, like Pan Am 103, had the taper end on top right at the same frames as the leading edge of the wing. The -400 model like the Qantas bird has the joint frame much further back, around the center wing box. In essence, if this had been an earlier model of the 747, the outcome of this explosion likely would have been exactly like Pan Am 103, where the small perforation in the hole led to an "unzipping" of the skin all the way to the top, breaking off the forward fuselage from the wing. TWA 800 was also an earlier model and the explosion near the front of the center fuel tank also caused its forward fuselage to break off. Perhaps the only thing that saved the Qantas flight was the beefier construction of the -400 model. Ron Beowulf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: _____ From: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 8:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [grendelreport] Qantas jet drama 'due to oxygen explosion' I have given the past decade of my life working out of a busy airport. I have seen some odd things happen to aircrafts, found dead bodies in landing gears (idiots who attempted to smuggle themselves in) a plane crash (pilot error) and other aviation mishaps. BUT, I HAVE NEVER, EVER SEEN a hole blown out of an aircraft due to "oxygen". With fuel charges doubling, thus affecting the price of airline tickets, coupled in the post 9/11 era the last thing the travel industry needs is a terrorist attempt on air travel. The industry would suffer worse than after 9/11. They are obviously covering up what really happened due to public fear and the threat to the economic aspect of air travel. It's that simple. It's the same principal of subway suicides not going reported in the media. It happens more than you know, but they discovered the more you report it, the number of suicide incidents spike. The ******* transit system will not allow the media to report suicides/jumpers in front of trains because of this. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Beowulf Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 9:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Intelligence History; [email protected] Subject: [grendelreport] Qantas jet drama 'due to oxygen explosion' Comments: Do think if they knew they would tell anybody even the media ...........absolutely not. Why? because they don't want anyone to see how worthless they are at getting the job done. So they manipulate the media, control access to the facts and treat us like mushrooms by feeding a special diet of bullshit designed to nuture most any fungus/mushroom. I'm suprised they let the pictures get out but the media was right there when the plane landed so the genie was out of the bottle. Bottles. First of all the bottles cannot be over pressured. If they are a static system, they are filled to a regulated pressure according to DOT standards that the bottles were designed for. Every so many years the bottles are required to undergo a hydrostatic test for serviceablity. IT was not a bottle failure. IT had to be either a bracket failure, a line or valve failure that went to the bottle or some other external influence other than the bottle. The valves are also checked for functionality on a regular basis as the lines are that go into the bottle as part of the aircrafts periodic maintenance Inspection schedules. But if want to see how many lies are told all we got to do is watch the song and dance. The more the time the story changes the more we know they are treating us like mushrooms. Telling us what we think wwe are naive enough to believe. but since we are not ALL LIBERALS, we naturally are not THAT NAIVE to beleive every word that falls from govt's lips and those that represent govt. We may be slow but we ain't stupid now....... m. Qantas jet drama 'due to oxygen explosion' A fault in the pilots' emergency supply could have caused the near-disaster http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4384017.ece#cid=OTC- RSS <http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4384017.ece#cid=OTC -RSS&attr=797093> &attr=797093 Steven Swinford and Paul Eddy INVESTIGATORS are focusing on the possibility that exploding oxygen tanks were responsible for blowing a gaping hole in the fuselage of a Qantas Boeing 747 plane at 29,000ft. A team from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau has found debris scattered through the cargo hold from two oxygen tanks holding a two-hour emergency supply for the pilots. The roof above them appears to have been pushed up by the force of an explosion. Investigators are working on the theory that the explosion was caused by impact from loose cargo or the corrosion of the tanks themselves. A source close to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) in Australia said: "It is looking extremely likely that one or more of the oxygen tanks exploded. It's never happened before so nobody knows what caused it. It could be as simple as some cargo shifting and smashing into it, which shouldn't be able to happen." The investigators added, however, that it is too early to discount metal fatigue, whereby the fuselage is weakened over time by the expansion and contraction of the plane during take-off and landing. This creates tiny cracks in the fuselage which are invisible to the eye, but which can eventually give way. Flight QF30 from London to Melbourne was an hour into its leg from Hong Kong to Melbourne on Friday morning when a gaping hole appeared in the front right side of the plane. Part of the ceiling in the passenger cabin collapsed, some of the flooring gave way and debris flew across the first class section. Some passengers recorded the drama on their mobile phones. Footage showed passengers sitting with their oxygen masks on as the 19-strong crew continued to serve food, showing no sign of panic. Captain John Francis Bartels, a former pilot with the Royal Australian Navy, managed to put the aircraft into an emergency descent from 29,000ft to 10,000ft where the passengers and crew could breathe without oxygen. He landed at Manila airport in the Philippines an hour later. Investigators are analysing debris in the cargo hold from the two oxygen tanks. The tanks were bolted to the walls of the hold near where the fuselage ruptured. There were unconfirmed reports last night that the pilots had experienced difficulties with their oxygen supply as they made their descent. They have a backup in the cockpit in the event of the main supply failing. According to Bill Hamilton, a former pilot who flew Qantas 747s for seven years, the bottles are made of toughened aluminium or carbon fibre and would have been difficult to break. He believes corrosion could have caused the tanks to rupture. "There's a saying in the engineering field that if you don't find corrosion you are not looking hard enough. The structural failures I've heard of in the past have been corrosion-related or damage-related and because of inferior repairs," he said. As well as the debris, investigators also found that the floor above the tanks had been pushed upwards, which is more consistent with an explosion. The CASA source said: "In a normal depressurisation, if a fuselage had metal fatigue and a hole was suddenly ripped in it, everything would be sucked down and out. But in fact the floor above the bottles has been blown upwards, which is more consistent with an explosion." Geoff Dixon, chief executive of Qantas, denied that corrosion caused the hole. According to the CASA, corrosion was identified during a month-long maintenance check in February, but the damage was minor and further back in the plane. It had previously undergone a more thorough check in 2004. Although the plane is 17 years old, it is still considered relatively young by aviation experts because long-haul aircraft make relatively few take-offs and landings, which put strain on the fuselage. If the oxygen tanks are to blame, the repercussions for the rest of the 700-strong fleet of 747-400s are likely to be limited. Most do not carry the large tanks used on flight QF30, which are standard issue on planes whose path takes them over the Himalayas. They need larger supplies before a plane can be sure of dropping to a safe altitude of 10,000ft. The majority of 747-400s in service use chemical oxygen generators, which are less volatile. Explosive decompressions such as that suffered by the Qantas jet are rare, with about 20 incidents in the history of commercial aviation. The most recent took place in 1989, when nine people died on a United Airlines 747-122 when the cargo door blew out after it left Hawaii for Australia. Qantas has never lost a jet aircraft to an accident. Its record was emphasised in the 1988 movie Rain Man, where an autistic character played by Dustin Hoffman insists on flying with the airline. The delayed passengers finally arrived in Melbourne yesterday. For Jane and Dermot Charlton, from Fareham in Hampshire, QF30 had been their first flight. 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