Dear Mike,
thank for letting go "your fears of of writing your personal
thoughts in a public domain". You've encouraged me to let go my fear
of writing to a group of people, all so much more experienced in
open space than me - and furthermore - to write in a foreign
language.
I am following the exchange on the list for about six weeks now and
I have received so many enriching thoughts of you writers. But the
best is this valuing, honoring energy I perceive. And I want to
thank you all for sharing this with me.
"This letting go thing" really seems to be it. I decided to stop
fighting some months ago (what I did the last 36 years in one way or
the other). And I started to believe that the "right" way is the
easy one. (On the other hand the easy way sometimes still seems to
be the hardest for me - because it demands to let go). So, not that
I am totally convinced by now but I do trust more and more every day.
I am looking forward to having more of this energy in Svenmark and
to meet all who are coming there,
my best wishes for your journey,
Marei
OSLIST <osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu> schrieb am 08.08.03 04:29:06:
G'day Chris today you wrote: Once when I was facilitating a group of
First Nations people from all over British Columbia and we were
doing action planning, I invited the group to "come forward to the
centre of the circle, grab five dots and indicate where your passion
lay." Two older women from the Carrier Nation started laughing. In
the Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like "dot") is a
very rude term for female anatomy. They had a moment of thrilling
confusion until they figured out what I REALLY meant! Chris Man
you have some great stories; this is priceless!!! You could've had
some real super passionate people on your hands there! My workmates
and I had an Open Space workshop last week facilitated by Daniel
Lebel. Did we get passionate when it came to convergence. Freedom
shock divided the group. Those in shock were not going to give up
their total belief that they had no power to effect change except
through the usual closed space channels. Others of!
us, and I was a participant, were exasperated with their lack of
responsiveness. Eventually after a bit of hollering someone
announced they were going to champion an issue. The champions
grabbed their issues and convened meetings, the rest formed a
circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility of the
exercise because nothing was going to change! It was a sobering
experience for me, and a good reminder of the amazing transformation
that is required of our organisations and systems if they are ever
going to be open space! I was reading some old university notes
about soft systems methodology. Heck open space can do in three
days what an encyclopedic dissertation and months of meetings could
never do. The key seems to be this letting go thing. Which while
easily said is probably the greatest lesson I have learned in my
short life. Not to say I have "arrived" yet. It took some pretty
major life threatening convincing before I could accept life on
life's terms!
and then let my version of reality go. It's a daily journey. Write no
w
of writing my personal thoughts in a public domain. I'd be keen to
hear what the rest of you think? All the BestMike Copeland
---
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Bowen Island, BC, Canada
http://www.chriscorrigan.com
ch...@chriscorrigan.com
(604) 947-9236
-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Lucy Geão
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43 PM
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Subject: Res: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)
Joelle, artur (and all too)
do not be worried, the word "paper" has differents meanings as
artur showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure
that the brazilian people attending the event understood the
confusion between what the translator did and what you was really
intending to say and , possibly, smiled.
lucy
-------Mensagem original-------
De: OSLIST
Data: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30
Para: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Assunto: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)
Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)
Joelle wrote:
Artur-- (...)
I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles of
family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and
interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures. But
I also wonder
if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something like
"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the
response might
have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think?
And Lucy replyied:
joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of the
word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that means
"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a swearword
used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see?
This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I use
that story for other purposes and quote you both?
I would like to add some comments:
1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the
idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not
sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that
is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was
almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy clarified.
2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good,
especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate. And
I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't translate
that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar
word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the
Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I
suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle.
3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can
often do a "correct
word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into Portugues,
as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish "papeles").
The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I
wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if they
were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense....
4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would
understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social roles"
giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets of
papers.
5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an Arab
and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a translator
without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I
suspect.
6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good
traslations can be useful
(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate
"conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism.
7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a different
country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must always
ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the
subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in
other subjects.
8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese in
subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to
confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems, as
I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a
turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...
Regards
Artur
*
*
==========================================================
osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu,
Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
.
____________________________________________________
IncrediMail - O mundo do correio eletrônico finalmente
desenvolveu-se - Clique aqui* *
==========================================================
osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To
subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu, Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html * *
==========================================================
osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To
subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu, Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Attention:
This e-mail (and attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
__________________________________________________________________________
Die sicherste Form der Kommunikation: E-Mails verschluesseln, Spam-Filter,
Adressverifizierung, digitale Unterschrift: http://freemail.web.de
*
*
==========================================================
osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu,
Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
