Pat Wrote: "To refer back to Harrison's statement I don't think you can enable it or sustain it. I think all of creation is the an expression of it."
No question in my mind Pat, we do not "create self-organization." It is. But I really do believe that we can learn to use it, to optimize it, and to sustain it. More to the point, I think that is precisely what we all have been learning to do for 20 years with OST. I presume you would have no problem in talking about "Optimizing and sustaining life." And mutates mutandis -- the same applies to self-organization, which after all is what life is all about, at least a fundamental level. For sure we know how to screw it up (which also teaches us what NOT to do). Terminal screw up occurs every time we attempt to organize a self-organizing system -- or control it, which amounts to the same thing. And I think we have been learning a lot about how to make it (SO,Life,Open Space) sing. It starts with Invitation, comes to a circle, includes passion and responsibility etc. Or something. Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Drive Potomac, Maryland 20854 Phone 301-365-2093 Skype hhowen Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org Personal website www.ho-image.com OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Pat Black Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 1:52 PM To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Subject: Re: doing self-organization Michael et al First of all thank you for this discussion. You can't have self organization without open space and probably you can't have open space with out self organization. But I love the rolling around of thoughts in these regards. I love the mystery of creation that is revealed. I come at self organization from a biological science perspective. In creation self organization does enable high performance, sustaining life and evolution or leading change in organization as you put. Some would say that without selforganization there would be no life. Self organization is not an outward event. It is not an abstracted event. It is action in response to experience and the identity transforming that occurs because of this relationship between self and the environment self occurs in. It does in its essence make life possible. In looking at the organization of a cell and what is possible, self organization facilitates the association and configurationof lipids and proteins that allow the passage of certain materials into the cell. In the case of the living each action the living entity takes changes the environment that the entity is in. This would create a toxic environement for living to be sustained if not for this dynamic relationship between self and environement. This is what self organization is. It is a presence to be in the place where it is. It is a presence that allows transformation in a transforming environment. It is a presence that recognizes possibility and enters into relationship with it. Varela would call it the mindfulness found in Buddhist tradition and the the fundamental cognition. Self organization is what makes even a molecule possible and everything else in creation possible. For me it is like a fractal that is fundamental to everything and defines creation and is integrated into all that is created. To refer back to Harrison's statement I don't think you can enable it or sustain it. I think all of creation is the an expression of it. So for me it is more how to remain the most synchronized with it and therefore with myself. Individual entities can I suppose intefere with the process or presence but not without causing their own death. Even if one eliminates their own self organizing abilities and cause their death, their physical form will be included in the possibility of something else in creation. Like I said I just don't think that anything can be separated from it because we are it even in our own deaths. I guess what I hear when you say that you like to enable high preformance, sustain life in neighborhood communities, leading change in organizations, or other purposes is that you like to work at the macro level. In reading your posts and some of your writings I speculate that in your work with groups of people that you try to be present for the group in a capacity that facilitates creation, identity, transformation, possibility. I am thinking that if my specualtion about you is correct you name what you do a little deferently. From where I view it, I would name it an expression of self organization. I am totally a believer that is certain from this post and part of what I love about the topic is the implications it has. If this is true and self organization is fundamental to creation and us as part of creation what implications does it have for how we view actions in the world like violence lest say? What implications are there for how we work in community if any? Self organization is on some level the seed for intelligence. It has helped me view the workings of the world as intelligent in that they all lead down a path. This view helps me to descripe the path and do specualte where it might lead. I am wondering where that kind of wondering will lead? Love to be present for this conversation. pat black On 5/24/07, Michael Herman <mich...@michaelherman.com> wrote: > and harrison... looking back at your language about essentials, "the > process of self organization > can be enabled and sustained by paying careful attention to eight critical" > > ...it occurs to me that i'm not much interested in "the process of > self-organization... enabling it... or sustaining it. more interested > in enabling high performance, sustaining life in neighborhood > communities, leading change in organization, or other purposes... but > no doubt this issue is only popping up because this bit you've posted > is taken out of context, so it's lost the links to these and all the > other "good" things that we would ever want to invite. i imagine that > high performance and the rest are already wrapped up inside of what > you mean when you say 'self-organization' above. > > m > > > > > On 5/24/07, Michael Herman <mich...@michaelherman.com> wrote: > > hi doug, > > > > seems to me that your first question assumes halfway state. "if there > > is such a thing as self-org" then leaves open the question of whether > > or not there is anything else. once we notice that it is, AND is > > everywhere, then the need for knowing or creating the conditions seems > > to dissolve, maybe into harrison's beer. we need to know more, > > perhaps, if we want to make a better beer, but probably not about the > > "conditions" for refrigeration, but about refrigeration as the > > condition for beer. so the conditions that matter are the conditions > > for high performance or productive work. and when we ask that, i > > think we can quickly dissolve most of what people say into what > > happens in our principles and law and circle and invitation and... > > > > inviting, like marshall rosenberg's 'non-violent communication, > > emphasizes choice. invitation is request for attention, not demand. > > even in writing an invitation with a leader/sponsor, i'm not ever > > trying to make the invitation go a certain way, but i do invite > > attention (theirs) to focus on various bits of what i'm > > hearing/sensing in them and their situation, exploring the 'rightness" > > of these bits to see what dimensions of everything they'd like to > > invite others to focus on with them. > > > > my two cents. > > > > m > > > > > > > > On 5/24/07, douglas germann <76066....@compuserve.com> wrote: > > > Michael, Harrison, Joelle, Andrew, Pat, Raffi, and all-- > > > > > > (Sorry for the previous posting--somehow hit the send key before I was done.) > > > > > > Would you be interested in entertaining a couple of musing questions? > > > > > > If (some people in command and control mode might still use the word > > > "if") there is such a thing as self organizing, what would be its > > > conditions? > > > > > > This seems to be to be a fruitful inquiry, and it goes beyond > > > our usual important, complex, diverse, conflict, immediacy list. > > > For me it perhaps overlaps but is not precisely the same as > > > Harrison's list of 8 essentials. > > > > > > For instance, is invitation necessary for self > > > organizing? What level of freedom? What order of > > > equality of the participants? Are there physical > > > conditions? Or is it just two or more gathering? > > > > > > Closely related: What is the difference between trying to control what a > > > group does and inviting? (Harrison, you hinted at this in a post today > > > when you say "I believe that there is an infinitely better possibility > > > through which we may discover deep ways to realize our full potential as > > > human beings, as well as doing something very useful and good in the > > > world.") Is it simply a matter of degree, or is the difference > > > qualitative? > > > > > > For instance, when Birgitt writes of "givens," or I help > > > someone write the theme for their invitation, we are > > > consciously directing the attention of the participants > > > to something we want to examine or change. So for > > > instance, we are inviting people to make positive change > > > in the area of X, or to explore the issues and > > > opportunities of X, and this necessarily takes their > > > attention off Y, Z, Q and J. > > > > > > :- Doug. > > > > > > * > > > * > > > ========================================================== > > > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > > > ------------------------------ > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > > > view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > > > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > > > > > To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: > > > http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Michael Herman > > Michael Herman Associates > > 300 West North Ave #1105 > > Chicago IL 60610 USA > > > > phone: 312-280-7838 > > email: mich...@michaelherman.com > > skype: globalchicago > > > > http://www.michaelherman.com > > http://www.openspaceworld.org > > http://www.chicagoconservationcorps.org > > > > > -- > > Michael Herman > Michael Herman Associates > 300 West North Ave #1105 > Chicago IL 60610 USA > > phone: 312-280-7838 > email: mich...@michaelherman.com > skype: globalchicago > > http://www.michaelherman.com > http://www.openspaceworld.org > http://www.chicagoconservationcorps.org > > * > * > ========================================================== > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > ------------------------------ > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: > http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist