Adrian,

I would not oppose to making a clarification similar to the following, if the 
WG things its useful:

The S-BFD Discriminators are expected to be quite static. S-BFD Discriminators 
may change when enabling the S-BFD functionality or via an explicit 
configuration event. These will result in a change in the information 
advertised in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV in OSPF, but are not expected to 
happen with any regularity.

[I expect that text needs (a lot of) wordsmithing, and might not be useful or 
desired at all, but just to make the discussion more real]

Thanks,

— Carlos.

> On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:59 AM, Adrian Farrel <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Acee has it right.
> 
> While (of course) stuff can be done in implementations to mitigate the 
> effects, the protocol extensions here increase the size of LSA and increase 
> the amount of flooding. Since the LSAs have to be stored (in some form), it 
> is reasonable to describe the amount of extra information that reflects 
> across a network - maybe express it as "LSA data" and leave it up to an 
> implementation to choose how to store it. Since the number of LSA updates 
> impacts the routing plane processing and bits on the wire, it is reasonable 
> to ask what impact that might have.
> 
> I am interested to hear whether turning Reflectors on and off could be a 
> feature that could cause LSAs to flap and so create flooding ripples in the 
> network.
> 
> Adrian
> 
> From: Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 28 April 2016 10:21
> To: Manav Bhatia; Adrian Farrel
> Cc: <[email protected]>; [email protected]; 
> [email protected]; OSPF WG List
> Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt
> 
> Hi Manav,
> 
> From: Manav Bhatia <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Date: Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 1:31 AM
> To: Adrian Farrel <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: "<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>" <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>, Routing Directorate <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>, "[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>" 
> <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>, OSPF WG List 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: Re: Rtg Dir review of draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator-04.txt
> 
>> Hi Adrian,
>> 
>> Thanks for the extensive review. I have a minor comment on a minor issue 
>> that you raised.
>> 
>>> 
>>> Minor Issues:
>>> 
>>> I should like to see some small amount of text on the scaling impact on
>>> OSPF. 1. How much additional information will implementations have to
>>> store per node/link in the network? 2. What is the expected churn in
>>> LSAs introduced by this mechanism (especially when the Reflector is
>>> turned on and off)?
>> 
>> Isnt this implementation specific? This is what will differentiate one 
>> vendor implementation from the other.
>> 
>> I am not sure how we can quantify this -- any ideas?
>> 
>> This is akin to saying that IS-IS, in contrast to OSPFv2, is more attuned 
>> for partial SPF runs because the node information is cleanly separated from 
>> the reachability information. However, this isnt entirely true. While i 
>> concede that node information is mixed with prefix information in OSPFv2, 
>> there still are ways in which clever implementations could separate the two 
>> and do exactly what IS-IS does.
>> 
>> I took this rather circuitous approach to drive home the point that 
>> scalability, churn, overheads on the system are in many cases dependent on 
>> the protocol implementation and by that token outside the scope of the IETF 
>> drafts.
> 
> I believe what is being requested is a discussion of how often the S-BFD TLV 
> is likely to change, the effects on flooding, and, if required, 
> recommendations for any rate-limiting or other measures to prevent churn.
> 
> Thanks,
> Acee
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> You *do* have...
>>>    A change in information in the S-BFD Discriminator TLV MUST NOT
>>>    trigger any SPF computation at a receiving router.
>>> ...which is a help.
>> 
>> I would be alarmed if an implementation in an absence of this pedantic note 
>> triggered SPF runs each time an S-BFD disc changed ! I mean if you 
>> understand the idea being discussed then you also understand that a change 
>> in this TLV has no bearing on the reachability anywhere. And that knowledge 
>> should be enough to prevent SPF runs in most cases !
>> 
>> I know that we have added this note but if we need to explicitly spell such 
>> things out in all standards then we clearly have bigger problems ! :-)
>> 
>> Cheers, Manav

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