Send Outages-discussion mailing list submissions to
outages-discussion@outages.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
outages-discussion-requ...@outages.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
outages-discussion-ow...@outages.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Outages-discussion digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Cogent disconnecting Russia (Owen DeLong)
2. Re: Cogent disconnecting Russia (Sean Brown)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 13:28:16 -0800
From: Owen DeLong <o...@delong.com>
To: Savarrah Goss <savarrah.g...@hamiltonrelay.com>
Cc: Sean Brown <sean.br...@saminds.com>, Outages Discussion
<outages-discussion@outages.org>
Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Cogent disconnecting Russia
Message-ID: <8533e48f-bc02-404f-b8cc-e396ed765...@delong.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Sometimes they intersect? In this case, World Affairs -> Action by Cogent ->
Outage.
Do you really have trouble following that line?
Owen
> On Mar 4, 2022, at 12:37 , Savarrah Goss <savarrah.g...@hamiltonrelay.com>
> wrote:
>
> Isn?t this for outage reporting and not discussing world affairs?
>
> Savarrah Goss | Hamilton Relay
>
> O: 229.338.7086 | C: 229.854.8872 | savarrah.g...@hamiltonrelay.com
> <mailto:savarrah.g...@hamiltonrelay.com> | HamiltonRelay.com
> <http://www.hamiltonrelay.com/>
> <image001.png> <https://hamiltonrelay.com/>
> <image002.png> Hamilton Relay <http://facebook.com/HamiltonRelay> |
> <image003.png> @HamiltonRelay <http://twitter.com/HamiltonRelay>
>
> From: Outages-discussion <outages-discussion-boun...@outages.org
> <mailto:outages-discussion-boun...@outages.org>> On Behalf Of Sean Brown
> Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 3:27 PM
> To: Owen DeLong <o...@delong.com <mailto:o...@delong.com>>
> Cc: Outages Discussion <outages-discussion@outages.org
> <mailto:outages-discussion@outages.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Cogent disconnecting Russia
>
> **This email originated from outside of the Hamilton network. Please use
> extra caution with links and attachments. **
>
> I disagree. It seems pretty obvious the ?neutral power? reference are the
> signatory nations to the Convention not engaged in conflict and not every
> private entity therein. As such the US (in this case) couldn?t direct Cogent
> to disconnect from Russia and not Ukraine, but Cogent is free, as a private
> entity, to choose not to do business with companies in Russia.
>
>
> The US is not directing Cogent to this action so the US is not in violation
> of the Convention, and Cogent is not a signatory to the Convention.
>
>
>
> On Mar 4, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Owen DeLong <o...@delong.com
> <mailto:o...@delong.com>> wrote:
>
> It?s clear from the second paragraph of I.9 that this convention is written
> to apply to ?powers? (i.e. governments) and that each government is expected
> to enforce compliance by companies operating under its ?flag? for lack of a
> better term.
>
> As such, it seems, at least in theory that Cogent would be expected to be
> of the same posture (neutrality or not) as the U.S. overall. I think it would
> be hard to claim that the U.S. is either entirely neutral or entirely in
> support
> of Ukraine under current conditions, so I guess that leaves Cogent free to
> choose anywhere on that spectrum they wish as well.
>
> Personally, I?m of mixed opinion. I support doing whatever we can to hurt
> Putin and the leadership of Russia that has created this situation, but I am
> not convinced that cutting off access to outside information for millions of
> Russian citizens is not counterproductive to that end.
>
> Owen
>
>
>
> On Mar 4, 2022, at 11:36 , Matthew Petach <m...@petach.org
> <mailto:m...@petach.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> If they're going to follow the War Conventions in the Hauge, they should
> likewise terminate all customer connections to Ukraine as well, if they're
> considering themselves to be a neutral party.
>
> Of course, that doesn't apply if they're taking a side as a participant in
> the conflict.
>
> Shamelessly copying from Sean Donelan...
>
> https://www.icrc.org/en <https://www.icrc.org/en>
>
> Convention (V) respecting the Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and
> Persons in Case of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907.
>
> CHAPTER I : THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF NEUTRAL POWERS - ART. 8.
>
> Art. 8. A neutral Power is not called upon to forbid or restrict the use
> on behalf of the belligerents of telegraph or telephone cables or of
> wireless telegraphy apparatus belonging to it or to companies or private
> individuals.
>
>
> CHAPTER I : THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF NEUTRAL POWERS - ART. 9.
>
> Art. 9. Every measure of restriction or prohibition taken by a neutral
> Power in regard to the matters referred to in Articles 7 and 8
> must be impartially applied by it to both belligerents.
>
> A neutral Power must see to the same obligation being observed by
> companies or private individuals owning telegraph or telephone cables or
> wireless telegraphy apparatus.
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2022, 11:20 Andy Ringsmuth <a...@andyring.com
> <mailto:a...@andyring.com>> wrote:
> Apparently effective at noon EDT, which would be a couple hours ago.
>
> Washington Post, but here?s a paywall-free archive:
>
> https://archive.ph/TFgyg <https://archive.ph/TFgyg>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Outages-discussion mailing list
> Outages-discussion@outages.org <mailto:Outages-discussion@outages.org>
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion
> <https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Outages-discussion mailing list
> Outages-discussion@outages.org <mailto:Outages-discussion@outages.org>
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion
> <https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion>
>
>
>
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This email and any attachments are confidential and may
> be protected by legal privilege. If you have received this email in error,
> please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete all copies of
> this email.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<https://puck.nether.net/pipermail/outages-discussion/attachments/20220304/29c68115/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 16:54:59 -0500
From: Sean Brown <sean.br...@saminds.com>
To: Owen DeLong <o...@delong.com>
Cc: Matthew Petach <m...@petach.org>, Outages Discussion
<outages-discussion@outages.org>
Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Cogent disconnecting Russia
Message-ID: <1fcd8383-440a-4e3a-868d-3aa9b173e...@saminds.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Is this really what Cogent is doing? It?s not doing anything to the physical
hardware, it?s just choosing not to peer or work directly with Russian
companies.
Does Cogent own any of the physical infrastructure here? Is Cogents move
causing issues beyond not creating direct connections between it?s customers
and Russian based end-points? Is this move only really affecting Cogent
customers in Russia?
There is an unfortunate problem taking wording from a telecommunication world
of over 100 years ago and relating it to the current way the internet works,
but it would seem that those conventions would really properly only apply to
Tier 1 networks.
> On Mar 4, 2022, at 4:27 PM, Owen DeLong <o...@delong.com> wrote:
>
> I would agree with you if not for this passage:
>
>> A neutral Power must see to the same obligation being observed by
>> companies or private individuals owning telegraph or telephone cables or
>> wireless telegraphy apparatus.
>
>
> That, to me, says that the US, if it were a neutral power (and I am
> unconvinced
> that it is), it would have those obligations and would further be required to
> enforce those same obligations upon Cogent.
>
> Owen
>
>> On Mar 4, 2022, at 12:26 , Sean Brown <sean.br...@saminds.com
>> <mailto:sean.br...@saminds.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I disagree. It seems pretty obvious the ?neutral power? reference are the
>> signatory nations to the Convention not engaged in conflict and not every
>> private entity therein. As such the US (in this case) couldn?t direct Cogent
>> to disconnect from Russia and not Ukraine, but Cogent is free, as a private
>> entity, to choose not to do business with companies in Russia.
>>
>> The US is not directing Cogent to this action so the US is not in violation
>> of the Convention, and Cogent is not a signatory to the Convention.
>>
>>> On Mar 4, 2022, at 2:59 PM, Owen DeLong <o...@delong.com
>>> <mailto:o...@delong.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It?s clear from the second paragraph of I.9 that this convention is written
>>> to apply to ?powers? (i.e. governments) and that each government is expected
>>> to enforce compliance by companies operating under its ?flag? for lack of a
>>> better term.
>>>
>>> As such, it seems, at least in theory that Cogent would be expected to be
>>> of the same posture (neutrality or not) as the U.S. overall. I think it
>>> would
>>> be hard to claim that the U.S. is either entirely neutral or entirely in
>>> support
>>> of Ukraine under current conditions, so I guess that leaves Cogent free to
>>> choose anywhere on that spectrum they wish as well.
>>>
>>> Personally, I?m of mixed opinion. I support doing whatever we can to hurt
>>> Putin and the leadership of Russia that has created this situation, but I am
>>> not convinced that cutting off access to outside information for millions of
>>> Russian citizens is not counterproductive to that end.
>>>
>>> Owen
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 4, 2022, at 11:36 , Matthew Petach <m...@petach.org
>>>> <mailto:m...@petach.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If they're going to follow the War Conventions in the Hauge, they should
>>>> likewise terminate all customer connections to Ukraine as well, if they're
>>>> considering themselves to be a neutral party.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, that doesn't apply if they're taking a side as a participant in
>>>> the conflict.
>>>>
>>>> Shamelessly copying from Sean Donelan...
>>>>
>>>> https://www.icrc.org/en <https://www.icrc.org/en>
>>>>
>>>> Convention (V) respecting the Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and
>>>> Persons in Case of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907.
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER I : THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF NEUTRAL POWERS - ART. 8.
>>>>
>>>> Art. 8. A neutral Power is not called upon to forbid or restrict the use
>>>> on behalf of the belligerents of telegraph or telephone cables or of
>>>> wireless telegraphy apparatus belonging to it or to companies or private
>>>> individuals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER I : THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF NEUTRAL POWERS - ART. 9.
>>>>
>>>> Art. 9. Every measure of restriction or prohibition taken by a neutral
>>>> Power in regard to the matters referred to in Articles 7 and 8
>>>> must be impartially applied by it to both belligerents.
>>>>
>>>> A neutral Power must see to the same obligation being observed by
>>>> companies or private individuals owning telegraph or telephone cables or
>>>> wireless telegraphy apparatus.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2022, 11:20 Andy Ringsmuth <a...@andyring.com
>>>> <mailto:a...@andyring.com>> wrote:
>>>> Apparently effective at noon EDT, which would be a couple hours ago.
>>>>
>>>> Washington Post, but here?s a paywall-free archive:
>>>>
>>>> https://archive.ph/TFgyg <https://archive.ph/TFgyg>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Outages-discussion mailing list
>>>> Outages-discussion@outages.org <mailto:Outages-discussion@outages.org>
>>>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion
>>>> <https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Outages-discussion mailing list
>>> Outages-discussion@outages.org <mailto:Outages-discussion@outages.org>
>>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion
>>> <https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion>
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<https://puck.nether.net/pipermail/outages-discussion/attachments/20220304/350e0015/attachment.htm>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Outages-discussion mailing list
Outages-discussion@outages.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages-discussion
------------------------------
End of Outages-discussion Digest, Vol 145, Issue 9
**************************************************
