On 13.01.2014 18:32, Matěj Cepl wrote:
Hi,
On 2014-01-12, 20:32 GMT, Klaas Freitag wrote:
Where is that package, who maintains it and how long does it
take until it is updated after we released a new ownCloud
version? It is a problem for us if downstream falls behind
with the versions provided for the systems in question.
You can get all these information from
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/owncloud
(e.g., http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/owncloud.git/ shows
all packaging files,
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/owncloud shows current
updates in stable repos,
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=15599
shows builds (note, that F21 is current Rawhide)).
Thanks.
And here is the problem: Fedora 19 (!) seems to provide ownCloud 4.5.13
which is about nine month old. That's not what people want. They want
ownCloud 6. And we seek a way to provide them, even if they are on Fed19.
I am not sure what is the name of the package maintainer
(his/her Fedora login name is brummbq and he is also helped by
Adam Williams, one of the Fedora QA people, who uses ownCloud
for his own use), but what stops you from comaintaining the
package? I couldn’t imagine any complaints if you stepped up and
provided patches for (not that many) bugs against owncloud
packages
(https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=component%3Aowncloud)
or to start to comaintain the packages.
I know. People who do work are seldomly facing complaints for the fact
that they do work ;-)
Also, I am a Fedora provenpackager, so if there were any delays
with building packages or something of that sort, I have power
to push it through (of course, I would seek first advice from
the current package maintainer).
We use the build system that suits us best to provide packages to the
ownCloud users very fast, and currently that is the openSUSE
Build Service.
I am not big fan of the third party repos created by people who
are not willing to work with the distro community (and looking
at http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=owncloud I am not
alone).
Yes, I know, I worked long enough for another distro. But one of the
distro communities problems is that they don't really face todays
reality: As said above, people want to have up-to-date apps. And if a
new version (!) comes out, they wanna use it and not hear "Well, you
have a nine month old version, and we will provide you with security
fixes. Be happy!" They don't wanna have their operating system platform
having dictating the versions of the apps they're using. You might want
to check how that is on other, successful platforms like android how it
works there. Time has changed a bit, and we as distro guys shouldn't
close the eyes IMHO.
I don’t understand the word “very fast” here. It certainly
doesn’t mean speed literally.
Of course not. This is speed: If ownCloud upstream releases a new
ownCloud version, the users can install it through their distro package
manager an hour later. 6.0.0a on Fedora 19.
Do you mean that your own repo allows
you to create sloppy packages which break rest of the system? Do
you mean that instead of proper resolving the issues you can
introduce new versions of libraries incompatible with the rest
of the system? (is it finally possible to build owncloud client
on RHEL-6 without introducing new versions of the third party
libraries?) Do you mean that by hiding issue tracker you can
happily ignore complaints of your users (where is the issue
tracker of the Fedora/RHEL packages)?
Whooohooo, now you're starting! Please calm down a bit, we're not doing
bad stuff intentional.
a) RHEL 6 ships Qt 4.6 IIRC. That is so much outdated that we could not
backport the client without taking too much away. And RHEL not being
desktop system no 1 on the planet, we decided to ship an useful Qt
version in /opt/. I know, distro people hate that, but please consider
reality here as well. What do users want? A _working_ solution. And I
don't think that the Qt in /opt/.. steps in the way of anything else on
the system as we also provide wrapper scripts.
b) issue tracker: https://github.com/owncloud/mirall/issues - not
exactly hidden...
If the packages are not behaving well, please help us fixing.
Why should I help to split Fedora/EPEL distro by supporting
incompatible packages (and if they are not incompatible, what
they are good for)?
Because you're a constructive guy that helps to provide the best for
FOSS and it's users.
> I don’t know where this mentality of splitting distro into
thousand of incompatible subcommunities growth from? Ubuntu,
with its PPAs, because Canonical doesn’t allow you to fix bugs
in the core libraries, or what (not trying to libel them, just
really honestly don’t know why you need to separate yourself
from the rest of the Fedora/RHEL community)?
It's not that we want to separate, why should we? We see the benefit of
stable and maintained distros. But as I tried to explain above: We want
to provide our users with very current binary packages, as outlined,
that is one of our main goals. As soon as we can solve that requirement
with the main distros, we would love to drop our own packages.
Have you thought about how other web oriented platforms solve this
problem? Why does the ruby gem stuff exist? Because they want to be
faster than the distros update cycle, as we want. And I think you agree
with me that a third party repo with proper rpms is the better solution.
Fully agreed. The problem is probably that nobody had time and
knowledge enough to get that fixed. Can you help us and test
and tell us what needs to be done to make it work well with
SELinux?
Well, if you were using packages build together with the rest of
the distro (so they would have proper configuration files,
etc.), then you won’t need that time and knowledge yourself. You
just file bugs to RH BZ. That’s what sharing is all about.
Again, I am happy to drop our Fedora/RHEL packages if we can manage to
provide version update packages very fast for already released distros.
As long as we can not, I think we need to keep up our third party repo
for those who are interested in new versions on your distro. If our
packages are broken, sorry, please help us fixing.
How about coming you come up with concrete things to fix?
Having that said, I wonder if there is a cross distro dev room on FOSDEM
this year? It would be great if the distro guys could discuss how the
problem can be solved how version updates of leave packages can provide
fast through the standard distro channels. We're not the only ones with
that problem.
BTW, we have an [email protected] mailinglist to discuss this kind
of topics. Not sure if somebody from Fedora is subscribed...
Thanks for your dedicated input on that, I appreciate it very much!
regards,
Klaas
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