Yeah - agree with David - comparing Azure Compute to Heroku is not a fair comparison.
Something fairer would be Azure Computer vs Amazon EC2. Both offer similar capabilities in the Windows space (ie. running .NET code). Deployment is 'generally' easier with Azure - but flexibility is better with Amazon (admin access to the box). Yes ... I know that Azure has admin access (for the privileged few if you excuse the pun) - but that only complicates deployment; to the point where Amazon is actually easier. The other thing to consider is price. Amazon does have reserved instances and the new trial of bring your own license (very cool - but only US EA customers for now). You want to take these 'service prices' and compare them to buying iron, powering iron, cooling iron, licensing windows for your iron, bandwidth for your iron and paying your local iron-feeder (ie. your BOFH). Not to mention the complexity of service contracts for repairs etc. Now if you want 10+ servers you need to think about this (ie. you've outgrown your backyard shed-datacentre or your go-daddy-esque shared hosting). There are fair criticisms to make about Azure - but price probably isn't one of them. Phil [Disclaimer - I worked for MS until a few months ago - on one of the Azure teams] On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 8:28 AM, David Connors <da...@codify.com> wrote: > On 6 April 2010 07:17, Darren Neimke <darren.nei...@live.com> wrote: > >> Here's a post by Tatham that highlights the cost issue: >> >> >> http://blog.tatham.oddie.com.au/2010/04/05/why-windows-azure-is-not-worth-investing-in >> >> I'm not a MS beancounter, and so I'm not sure how they are going to do >> it... but if they are going to attract devs to their platform, they will >> need to find a way to open it up for development purposes because all of >> what Tatham has written in his article is extremely valid. I've been in the >> same place as Tatham - having to make that decision about where to host my >> small service - and ultimately at that point I have baulked and turned away >> from Azure. >> > > The only thing I think is valid in that article is the criticism that MSDN > does not include a 24x365 compute instance. With that, I am on the same page > as Tatham however I also can appreciate that MS have sunk a bucketload of > money into building the platform and associated data centres and there would > be some sort of internal charge back between groups which would just drive > up the cost of MSDN. > > The crux ... "US$84.82 per month … for a web service." does not make sense. > A few observations: > > 1. $84.82 per month for a small Windows based VPS is probably about the > market price at the moment (excluding the likes of slice host etc). The > deployment model of Azure is as a fixed commit of resources at the time of > deployment. > 2. Azure was built from the ground up for scale-out scenarios. > 3. You should choose a platform and deployment model that are > appropriate for the application. > 4. Try deploying native x64 Windows binaries to heroku and see how far > you get. > 5. Finding a bunch of people to support your argue that something that > costs money should be free instead doesn't really prove much other than > confirm my long term opinion that people in IT are both simultaneously > highly-paid and complete and utter tight arses. > > In this case, he has chosen the wrong platform for this web service and > should be looking at shared hosting which, after reading this: > http://heroku.com/how/architecture - looks like exactly what he did. > Unless I am missing something, Heroku is just a Ruby on Rails shared hosting > platform. I'd sooner choose Google App Engine if I was looking for free - at > least you can use a proper type-safe language. > > David. > > >> >> This is in part, why I've deduced that Azure is an enterprise only product >> - and why I'm so tough about it lacking certain enterprise features. >> >> >> >> >> Kind Regards, >> >> Darren Neimke >> http://twitter.com/digory >> darren.nei...@live.com >> mob: 0439 855 046 >> >> *From:* Greg Willis <gwil...@microsoft.com> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:31 PM >> *To:* ozAzure <ozazure@lists.codify.com> >> *Subject:* RE: Azure in Australia >> >> Great to see some lively discussion starting up here. If I can see >> evidence there is more than 3 of us on this list I'll definitely ask a few >> more folk from the Windows Azure and SQL Azure product teams to sign-up for >> good measure :-) >> >> I think it's fair to say that SQL Azure is still optimized for some >> scenarios (web, smaller application and ISV workloads) over others right >> now. I think it's also fair to say they are adding in functionality at a >> decent rate (50GB size instances coming, spatial etc). There is still also >> a lot I'd like to see added in to open up more scenarios. >> >> I have certainly worked with few product teams that could claim to be more >> feedback focused and driven than the Windows Azure and SQL Azure teams - so >> please use this site (and lists like this one) and let them know what you >> think is lacking: http://www.mygreatsqlazureidea.com >> >> Darren - 235 of your closest friends have currently voted for full-text >> search support. >> >> The product planning guys in the teams look straight to these sites as one >> key pulse of what people want to see next / the most. >> >> There is also the same for Windows Azure: >> http://mygreatwindowsazureidea.com (and "Dalllas', Windows Azure platform >> AppFabric etc) >> >> Cheers, >> Greg Willis >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* ozazure-boun...@lists.codify.com [ >> ozazure-boun...@lists.codify.com] on behalf of Darren Neimke [ >> darren.nei...@live.com] >> *Sent:* Thursday, 1 April 2010 3:26 PM >> *To:* ozazure@lists.codify.com >> *Subject:* RE: Azure in Australia >> >> My "beefs"... personally, there are parts of the product that I would >> like to see improved at a rate that is faster than the current rate. >> Service Management (inc. monitoring and reporting) is an example of such an >> area. >> >> There should be a recognition that the current maturity level of the >> product "is what it is" and that as such, as a consumer of such a service >> you can, from time to time, experience frustrations in using such a service: >> >> >> http://blogs.msdn.com/sqlazure/archive/2010/03/22/9982979.aspx >> >> <http://blogs.msdn.com/sqlazure/archive/2010/03/22/9982979.aspx>I >> understand that, to mature such a product requires an effort in terms of not >> only software and systems development, but also importantly in marketing, >> documentation, and support services as well. And to raise the maturity >> level from where it currently sits will take some time. >> >> It is some of these issues - and through concentrated use of the service >> and its features - that I have experienced some dissatisfaction. >> >> Our mileage may vary! :-) >> >> >> >> Kind Regards, >> >> Darren Neimke >> darren.nei...@live.com >> http://2010wave.blogspot.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> From: steven.n...@readify.net >> To: ozazure@lists.codify.com >> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:14:50 -0700 >> Subject: RE: Azure in Australia >> >> I totally agree! I’m just asking.. what are your beefs? >> >> One of mine is that SQL Azure is not so much designed for scale out where >> the other services are. >> >> Its almost like SQL Azure is after a completely different market of >> consumer, which might be true. >> >> >> >> *Steven Nagy >> *Readify | Senior Developer >> >> M: +61 404 044 513 | E: steven.n...@readify.net | B: azure.snagy.name >> >> >> >> *From:* ozazure-boun...@lists.codify.com [mailto: >> ozazure-boun...@lists.codify.com] *On Behalf Of *Darren Neimke >> *Sent:* Thursday, 1 April 2010 2:03 PM >> *To:* ozazure@lists.codify.com >> *Subject:* RE: Azure in Australia >> >> >> >> >> Greg, do you think we can get some involvement from them here? >> >> More engagement is always a good thing - especially within AU. >> >> >> >> And in re-reading your opening couple of sentences there Steve (heck... I >> thought you were a blue badge for a second there mate! :)) let's keep an >> open mind about the quality of the system that we are experiencing. Let's >> not be afraid to make critical assessments as to the state of play. And >> let's all play together for the betterment of the product. >> >> >> >> It's in nobody's interest - especially a product evangelist's - for us to >> be shills and simply pretend that everything is fine. >> >> >> >> At the end of the day I'd ask myself this... how much of my own money >> (mine or my businesses) am I likely to put on the table for Azure. And what >> needs to improve before that amount might be increased. >> >> >> >> >> Kind Regards, >> >> Darren Neimke >> darren.nei...@live.com >> http://2010wave.blogspot.com >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> From: steven.n...@readify.net >> To: ozazure@lists.codify.com >> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 20:40:21 -0700 >> Subject: RE: Azure in Australia >> >> Hi Darren, >> >> >> >> There are many ways in which to supply feedback to the team. Currently you >> can ‘request features’ and the team also has had online open chat sessions >> before. I’ve found these sessions to be very telling because a lot of cloud >> enthusiasts have really pushed hard on certain issues. I’m not sure if >> anyone from the development teams are actually on this list (like Jim, >> Steve, etc) but would be nice if they were. Greg, do you think we can get >> some involvement from them here? >> >> >> >> And Darren, what exactly is your perception of how things have gone? I’d >> like to see how it aligns with my own, given I haven’t been to a PDC or MIX >> and my only contact mechanism with the team is through social media. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> *Steven Nagy >> *Readify | Senior Developer >> >> M: +61 404 044 513 | E: steven.n...@readify.net | B: azure.snagy.name >> >> >> >> *From:* ozazure-boun...@lists.codify.com [mailto: >> ozazure-boun...@lists.codify.com] *On Behalf Of *Darren Neimke >> *Sent:* Thursday, 1 April 2010 1:36 PM >> *To:* ozazure@lists.codify.com >> *Subject:* RE: Azure in Australia >> >> >> >> In all seriousness though Greg, I think that some more transparency about >> some of this stuff could have helped, and not hindered the perception of how >> certain things have gone by people such as myself. At the end of the day, >> is there discussion about these things within the realm of the social media >> - yes; but is that *the* appropriate medium for communicating to your target >> audience about the state of the product... probably not. >> >> >> >> And on the topic of help, if there are genuine areas in which you guys >> need any help or feedback *and* you are prepared to deal with the feedback >> in a transparent and honest manner... then I'm always available. As I >> always say... my supply of opinions is nearly limitless! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Kind Regards, >> >> Darren Neimke >> darren.nei...@live.com >> http://2010wave.blogspot.com >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> From: darren.nei...@live.com >> To: ozazure@lists.codify.com >> Subject: RE: Azure in Australia >> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:56:10 -0700 >> >> Oh I don't want to actually *do* any work... I just want to express my >> right to complain about the work of others :-) >> >> Kind Regards, >> >> Darren Neimke >> darren.nei...@live.com >> http://2010wave.blogspot.com >> >> >> >> > From: gwil...@microsoft.com >> > To: ozazure@lists.codify.com >> > Subject: RE: Azure in Australia >> > Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 02:20:30 +0000 >> > >> > Full-text search is not currently supported in SQL Azure. It is planned >> in future releases. >> > One of the first places to watch for confirm of new functionality in the >> SQL Azure releases is the team blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/ssds/ >> > >> > They are also recruiting Darren so you can go and help them finish the >> job ☺ >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Greg Willis >> > Email: gwil...@microsoft.com >> > >> > From: ozazure-boun...@lists.codify.com [mailto: >> ozazure-boun...@lists.codify.com] On Behalf Of Darren Neimke >> > Sent: Thursday, 1 April 2010 10:58 AM >> > To: ozazure@lists.codify.com >> > Subject: RE: Azure in Australia >> > >> > Thanks Greg, it's good to see that you guys are taking the time to >> present the information in a more understandable format. It would have been >> nice if you'd finished building it before you started charging for it >> though. >> > >> > Also, if I click on the Products tab I get some nice marketing >> information about each product, but it's not easy to see what specific >> features I am or am not getting. If I look at the SQL Azure product >> sheet it's not clear as to what functionality is included. For example is >> Full Text Search included yet - the Wikipedia page talks about search being >> included but it wasn't there when I last used the product back in December. >> > >> > >> > Kind Regards, >> > >> > Darren Neimke >> > darren.nei...@live.com >> > http://2010wave.blogspot.com >> > >> > >> > >> > > From: gwil...@microsoft.com >> > > To: ozazure@lists.codify.com >> > > Subject: Azure in Australia >> > > Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:39:32 +0000 >> > > >> > > As we’re apparently lacking Azure content for this list (☺) you might >> be interested to know Azure will be available for Australia just after >> Easter. >> > > You can see all of the ways you can get access after release here: >> http://www.windowsazure.com/offers and local AUD pricing. >> > > >> > > Greg Willis >> > > Windows Azure Evangelism Lead, Microsoft Australia >> > > Email: gwil...@microsoft.com Twitter: @gwillis >> > > Blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/gwillis >> > > LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/gwillis >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > ozazure mailing list >> > > ozazure@lists.codify.com >> > > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozazure >> > >> > ________________________________________ >> > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign >> up now. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > ozazure mailing list >> > ozazure@lists.codify.com >> > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozazure >> ------------------------------ >> >> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up >> now.<http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850553/direct/01/> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your >> inbox. Learn >> More.<http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_1> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. >> Get >> started.<http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_3> >> >> ------------------------------ >> The New Busy is not the old busy. 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