Yeah, We have an "expert" GP (not) who wants all women to be assessed by a Dr on admission!!! This in Mareeba where the Dr has not been involved at all in normal birth for years and years. You can imagine our reaction. Our OB in Cairns is NOT impressed and has written to the appropriate place to say so. Cheers Judy
--- Susan Cudlipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes it was Brenda who wrote that, but I have also been a > midwife long enough > to have seen many breech births - back in the UK, and > delivered a few > myself. Not all good, mostly quite 'managed' but at least > they were mostly > seen as being manageable vaginally! My own elective C/S > (nearly 21 years old > now!) was for primip breech, although I was given the choice > of vaginal > birth, I knew just what that would entail within the large > unit that I was > obliged to attend - epidural, forceps, episiotomy, and I chose > not to go > there, however at that time there was no question that I would > not be able > to have VBAC with the next - nowadays that is not so. > > A year or so back we had a multi with a breech who was lucky > enough to see a > less interventionist OB (as you so rightly guessed Melissa > :-)) and she > chose to have a vaginal birth. Of course it had to be induced > on the 'right' > day, but was very straight forward. Apart from that we really > don't see > them anymore, and at least one of the few docs who does do > them does such a > horrendous job that I would personally prefer a C/S rather > than submit to > his handling.( you can probably guess that one too Mel!) > > It is sad that student midwives today will not learn these > essential skills > within the hospital system. Personally I feel confident that > I can handle > an unexpected breech, but cannot see how the next generation > are going to > cope with this, there is so much fear of what is really only a > different > variety of birth, in the same way that any 'different' > presentation is. > Anyone who has had the pleasure of hearing Maggie Banks speak, > watched her > video, or that of Michel Odent's work in Pithiers will know > that this is > true > > Rachel, I totally empathise with how you are feeling having > just come to > Australia from the UK (been here 15 years myself). It was a > real shock to > me to see how much all births are seen as being the doctor's > property. One > of my first births here was in a small hospital and I called > the GP as per > protocol. He arrived as I had the head in my hands and > proceeded to rush > in, without even washing his hands and virtually pushed me out > of the way! > I looked at him with horror and said quietly " I think I may > as well finish > the job now don't you?" He did step back and let me finish. > Some years > later he admitted that he had learned a few things from me - > one of which > was to wait for restitution before trying to deliver the > shoulders! They > were always in such a goddamn hurry to drag the baby out, it > drove me mad. > > >> When they are faced with an 'expert' obstetrician (often a > male authority > >> figure) telling them their baby is in danger - they will > chose to protect > >> their child because as a mother that is their instinct. > >> > An example of this happened to me just this week - the head > was well and > truly crowned (primip, long labour, NO fetal distress) but OB > insisted on > listening to FH immediately ctx ended - it was about 100, and > he took over > from me to apply forceps. I was not concerned for the baby as > I knew there > had been no compromise throughout and that he would be born > within minutes, > but within the system I am obliged to defer to the doctor's > judgement, > whether or not I agree with it. Believe me, I know well what > happens when > one tries to argue!! > > I hope you maintain your own integrity and autonomy - it is > very different > here to what we knew in UK, but we do need to keep pushing for > midwifery led > care. I feel that much of the problem lies with how we are > percieved and > presented within this system. We are seen as being secondary > and forced > into a 'waitress' role, while doctors are glorified as being > all-knowing > experts. I have spent ages discussing things with couples > only to have > everything overturned by a 5 minute doctor appointment. > Nice to have your input on the list > Sue > "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good > men to do > nothing" > Edmund Burke > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brendamanning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:26 AM > Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: > > > > Rachel, > > > > Actually that was me (Brenda)not Sue, who wrote about the > physiological > > breeches, and I do realise now that experience is rare. > > When you speak about choice & what you'd do if you had a > breech baby > > yourself you are really limited because there are not many > of us in PP who > > have experience with breeches. > > I would definitely not alter plans to birth at home if my > baby was breech > > (but I have had 4 children) finding a MW to attend would be > a difficult > > task though! > > There is no way on earth I'd consent to surgery to remove my > healthy baby > > just because he was upside down ! > > The next best option here would be to go to our local > private hospital > > with my own MW & the OB who supports us (he was the OB who > had enough > > belief in women 10 years ago to be present for their breech > births but now > > is 'not allowed' to do them because of the breech trial). > > I would just insist, but then I can be very determined !! > > > > BM > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "wump fish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au> > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:55 AM > > Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: > > > > > >> Sue, you are so lucky to have cared for women having a > physiological > >> breech. I have only seen one vaginal breech - and it was > far from > >> physiological (epidural, stirrups, fiddling about etc). > >> > >> Unfortunately it doesn't matter what we teach women about > saying 'no'. > >> When they are faced with an 'expert' obstetrician (often a > male authority > >> figure) telling them their baby is in danger - they will > chose to protect > >> their child because as a mother that is their instinct. > >> > >> Women need to be making decisions such as c-section within > a partnership > >> relationship with a known midwife. They should be given > honest, > >> evidence-based info by someone who truely believes in the > body's ability > >> to birth (ie. not a dr) and will support their decision > whatever it is > >> (including c-section). Women would then be able to make > choices which are > >> right for them as individuals - not right for the system. > >> > >> As for breech birth. The Term-Breech Trial is often used by > the obs as > >> evidence that breech birth is unsafe for the baby. However, > this is not > >> what it shows. It can only tell us what happens in large > hospitals with > >> obs management of breech birth. It does not compare > physiological birth > >> with c-secion. Based on the findings - if I was planning a > breech birth I > >> would have two options. A planned c-section in a good > hospital. Or, a > >> homebirth with an experienced independent mw. > >> > >> Rachel > >> > >> > >>>From: "brendamanning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au > >>>To: <ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au> > >>>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 > 07:33:26 +1000 > >>> > >>>Sue, > >>>I wish we could teach women that they can say NO to C/S. > >>>No consent, no surgery. > >>>What can we do to enable them to just have faith? I know > it's the old > >>>education, education, education but it's just so wrong ! > >>>Very distressing, makes me want to cry! > >>>We used to have beautiful standing breech births 10 years > ago in our > >>>little hospital,not one with a problem, but no longer > allowed as we > >>>practice "safe" obstetrics now !!!!! > >>>There are only 1 or 2 of us who remember & believe it can > happen. > >>>SO SAD! > >>> > >>>BM > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Susan Cudlipp > >>> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:38 PM > >>> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re: > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi Melissa (only just worked out the surname :-)) > >>> Yes, happened today - how sad. > >>> Also today we saw a multi 10 wks post partum with RPOC > post emergency > >>> C/S for breech at 36 weeks. This particular lady had > vaginal breech with > >>> no.1, I delivered no 2 (SVD), and then, as you say - came > into labour on > >>> 'the wrong day' with no 3! > >>> > >>> There have been several incidents of what would 5 years > ago been > >>> considered to be 'good' breech presentations in multis, > being rushed off > >>> to theatre in established labour, ( I remember one who was > at least > >>> 7cms) justified by that accursed so-called breech trial! > Really sad how > >>> the skills to deliver well positioned breech births are no > longer taught > >>> or used. > >>> > >>> Did anyone else catch the 7 news last night? A small > story on a 23 > >>> week bub who had done very well, however they did state > that she had > >>> been one of twins, the other having died (or been > terminated?? due to > >>> complications - sorry, a bit vague on that bit, kids > making noise at the > >>> time) > >>> BUT the bit I did catch was that she had had to have a > C/S at 23 weeks > >>> because the 'placenta was growing through a previous C/S > scar' > >>> > >>> I find it very interesting to read the recent VBAC > recommendations and > >>> guidelines given to women - states clearly that VBAC is in > many cases > >>> preferable to repeat C/S - so why are they so keen to do > the C/S in the > >>> first place???? > >>> > >>> Sue > >>> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for > good men to > >>> do nothing" > >>> Edmund Burke > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Melissa Singer > >>> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:22 PM > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I thought I'd share with you a ridiculous scenerio > which happened at > >>> my work today. A woman who was having her fourth baby, > three previous > >>> being vaginal births and one of which was a uncomplicated > vaginal breech > >>> birth was booked for her first ELUSC for breech at 38 > weeks. Upon > >>> looking through the notes the only options that were > documented as being > >>> offered to her were C/S or "risky ECV". > >>> > >>> This baby was previously cephalic until 33/40, with > only her last > >>> two visits showing a non engaged breech presentation. I > surely hope > >>> they palpated her before performing the C/S today. > >>> > >>> Whats even more ridiculous is that she had her > previous babies at > >>> our hospital under the same obstetricians as today. Our > obstetricians > >>> are very experienced and in the past routinely did vaginal > breech > >>> births, with a couple still doing them. This poor lady > had simply gone > >>> to the wrong clinic day and seen the wrong obstetrician > for her! > >>> > >>> Her other three babies were all born within the last > five years! > >>> > >>> Times are changing fast! > >>> > >>> > >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >>> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - > Release Date: > >>> 30/08/2005 > >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ > >> Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends > >> http://messenger.msn.co.uk > >> > >> -- > >> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > >> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or > unsubscribe. > > > > -- > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or > unsubscribe. > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/86 - Release > Date: 31/08/2005 > > > > -- > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or > unsubscribe. > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. 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