On 7/22/16, Sergey Kondakov <virtuous...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 20.06.2016 00:36, Richard Brown wrote: >> On 19 June 2016 at 16:41, Dave Plater <davejpla...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> The pkg in multimedia:libs is about one hundred, thousand, million >>>> times more at risk of being broken than the pkg in Factory >>> >>> Not if it's well maintained >> >> There is _NO SUCH THING_ as a well maintained Devel Project. >> >> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_development_model >> >> They EXIST to be where things are put together, broken and ultimately >> fixed before being submitted to Factory for testing into Tumbleweed >> >> A Devel Project which doesn't break from time to time is not doing >> it's job properly. >> > > You may repeat that as long as you like just to make en excuse for your > team's > bad maintenance practices of OBS but no actual user will ever believe that. > Also, minuscule and specific testing in virtual machines or whatever you do > in > that "openQA" has never saved from actual problems even while using 100% > official packages. Probably not because it's bad but because it's not enough > to > negate dumb human decisions, overcomplex bureaucracy with the lack of > well-structured up-to-date human-readable guides to deal with it, lack of > actual > usage and belief that your dysfunctional defaults (once again, screw KDE5, > Gnome3, VLC, pulseaudio, wicked, kernel-default and, especially, BTRFS !) is > the > one and only way to do things. > >>>> >>>> Because it's a devel project, where packages are MEANT to be broken >>>> from time to time, meanwhile we KNOW the ffmpeg packages in Factory >>>> work as they get tested in openQA as part of the VLC testing. >>>> >>>> I've said it before and I'll say it again Packman building against >>>> multimedia:libs has always been silly >>> >>> Once Packman packages weren't linked and that resulted in many >>> problems with incompatible libraries and out of sync maintenance. >> >> >> In short, this is dangerous, wrong, stupid and downright idiotic.. and >> I'm being polite and holding back what i really think about it. >> >> At the very LEAST ffmpeg in Packman should be linked to >> Factory/Tumbleweed >> >> Packman for Leap should be linked to the version in Leap, so that >> users do not have to suffer needless risk upgrading their packages. > > For once we agree ! Building anything against non-official repo version of > something so fundamental as ffmpeg is almost as idiotic and irresponsible as > > removing distribution installer from the official repo of that > distribution. > - > Instead, "TW" should get kick in the ass to update its ffmpeg version. > > VLC and mpv aren't the only packages depending on it, you know ! But then > again, > we're talking about the people who seem to removed 32bit gstreamer packages > from > Packman's TW repo even though wine's A/V capabilities are dependant upon > them. > And because of things like that whole wine bugtracker is filled with > complaints > for years ( https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9127 ) from users who's > > distribution doesn't build it properly. Goodbye, pre-rendered cutscenes in > games > and multimedia applications in general. > - > Why the hell there is there "Factory" and "TW" repoes with different > configuration and packages ? Which one a normal person should use ? > > You both, TW team and Packman team, are at fault here. > * Just update ffmpeg in TW. > * Link ffmpeg and gstreamer and any other > framework for each distro independently. > * Work on better unnecessary rebuild-avoidance for OBS. > * Whatever commercial entity owns openSUSE should buy Packman servers, > since > it purposely made any openSUSE desktop installation 100% dependant upon > it. > Novell had a Russian office, Russian law spits on software patenting, > they can have them there legally. > > I would say that if anything happens with Packman then, most likely, > openSUSE > will lose all its non-server installations. > >>> Packman is a safe way for users to get the newest packages, especially >>> Leap users because it rarely gets new packages. It's a pity somebody >>> doesn't donate some extra server power to Packman to speed up the >>> build cycle. Maintaining the Packman packages in multimedia apps and >>> libs has taken away the old volatility that used to come from Packman. >>> It's a far better option to enabling multiple obs repositories for Leap. >> >> No, Packman is not a safe way and this thread is sadly yet another >> example of packman maintainers ignoring sound advice from seasoned >> packagers who know what they're talking about. >> >> And I'm not really talking about myself, you can ignore me all you >> want, but Bjorn is an expert on all things packaging and OBS, >> especially when it comes to large projects, it's downright crazy that >> his good advice appears to be ignored. >> >> Just as Tomas Chvatal's has been ignored on this list repeatedly. >> >> Please guys, I've been a long supporter of Packman, even running >> several servers for pmbs before I changed employer, so not erode my >> goodwill and poison my soft spot for your efforts by stubbornly >> sticking to your guns and risking the smooth operation of Tumbleweed >> and Leap users in the process. >> >> Please link your packages more appropriately. >> Please do whatever you can to avoid unnecessary drift between Packman >> and the distributions for which you are building Packman for. >> Please rebuild="direct" >> >> and Please listen to guys like Bjorn and Tomas when they give advice, >> they know what they're talking about >> > > Such a good advice... if only consideration gone both ways. > > On 20.06.2016 11:28, Dave Plater wrote: > >> No, Packman is not a safe way and this thread is sadly yet another > >> > example of packman maintainers ignoring sound advice from seasoned > >> > packagers who know what they're talking about. > > I actually don't agree with the zypper dup -r Packman model and would > > rather see a Requires: package-version-release model but this is still > > to be qualified, I never dup Packman, I just looked at my mix of > > gstreamer packages and they are from both openSUSE and Packman with no > > ill effects. > > > > Or you could just properly set repo priority, the last distinguishing > feature of > openSUSE along with yast, and not mess with release versions which would > make > all dependant packages hardcoded for your particular build for no reason. > > I actually agree with you, change my comment above which states Packman is a safe way to should be a safe way. I'm not really a part of the Packman team, I'm an openSUSE multimedia maintainer who cares about the distribution. I've seen things improving and hopefully the new Packman layout will make a difference but I'm not a part of this, the decisions are made by a closed group of people. Regards Dave Plater
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