Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats

[Gary Wood]

The manual states that the floor should be at 64 kbps.  It sounds to me like 
it suggests going to vbr-abr.  I'm trying to learn this stuff too.  I'm also 
wondering what advantage there is to using the default vbr settings is.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats


Thanks for explaining this.  One more question about settings:
I've learned from you how to make variable bit rate settings.  Now, if I
wish to try the average bit rate approach described in the manual, I 
wonder
if I've discovered the way to set it for that.  There isn't any button or
anything for doing this, so I poked around in the combo box list of 
various
variable bit rate types.  First you have Disabled, then you have the 
default
one, I guess that's what you're expected to use normally.

Then you have a couple of variations whose names I don't understand.  And
then, last on the list, is an option written as "VBR -ABR!"  could this be
the choice that sets the encoder to use an average bit rate, as a sub-type
of "variable bit rate?"  Does anyone know?
this program, though the price is right and the operation fairly simple to
navigate with a screen reader, is pretty bad in terms of how things are
named and how the documentation is written.  I mean, it truly makes no 
sense
at time.  It doesn't say, for instance, how to set VBR or ABR despite
discussing them, and I see it's given one reader the opposite idea of what
it meant by cautioning against not using a floor setting.  Same for the on
the fly explanation.  It starts by saying one thing, then reverses itself
not out of intention but just because the writing is confused, and no one
edited it for clarity.

I believe your own explanation of the on the fly deal sounded right.  I've
noticed that ripping takes much longer when you uncheck it, so I assume 
this
is because those operations I'm hearing tracked by the progress bar 
involve
a first one that writes the track to an image, as you put it, and then it
converts that to an .mp3.  But honestly, this stuff wouldn't be so hard if
the interface and documentation were a little better done.

I know, beggars can't be choosers.  So step on my pencil cup and smash my
blues guitar.  But still.
Okay, so what about the ABR setting?  Is that how you'd make it?  and then
do you still set a minimum and maximum for it to work with?
thanks, guys.
coencodr fr
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kevin Lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats

Hi.
There was a full version of CDEX released after this beta but 
unfortunately
version 1.51 didn't work on many peoples machines and so the beta lived 
on.

Regards.
Kevin
E-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats


Ah, so the Control A select all works, even though control homeand then
select to end didn't?  Interesting.  In other such situations, often
control
A won't work, but if you go to the top or bottom of an area and select
home
or select end, that will copy all.  ah, I know what it is I'm thinking 
of.
The General or Details tabs of the properties display for an Outlook
Express
message.
Okay.  I'll look again...
One more thing about the version of CdEx.  How come it's a Beta version?
Isn't there going to be a final version released?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kevin Lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats

I use that version of CDEX as I think most people on the list do.  There
is
actually an updated version 1.6 available now but I'm not sure what the
new
features are.
It's true that when you hit enter on a help topic, JAWS will start 
reading
the page.  You can't use your PC cursor to read the page back but you can
use the JAWS cursor to do so.  Alternatively, use control + A to select
and
control + C to copy and paste into a word document.  This does work and
here's the CDEX introduction copied in exactly that way.
Introduction
This document describes CDex, a utility for extracting sound files from
CDs
in your CD-ROM drive, and for  converting WAV files into several other
(compressed) formats, like the popular MP3 format.
The latest version of CDex can be downloaded from:
http://www.cdex.n3.net
System Requirements
Status of CDex
Acknowledgements
Change log

Kevin
E-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats

> One more thing:  I just opened the copy of CdEx on my computer and
attempted
> to study the help file topics about things I need to learn.  But even
though
> the topic list is set up like a tree view, and I can navigate it fine
and
> open books or topics to arrow to their sub topics, when I hit Enter, 
> I'm
> taken to a page that
> 1.  starts reading audotmatically in Jaws if I don't touch the 
> keyboard,
but
> can't be read deliberately with the arrow keys and Jaws reading
keystrokes.
> I thought maybe I could compensate by selecting and copying each
topics's
> text to the clipboard and pasting into a text editor to read, but my
attempt
> to do this also failed, for some reason.
>
> Also, the text seems incomplete, from what I can figure out, like only
topic
> headings are given but then there's no actual writing beyond that.
>
> 2.  I checked my version of CdEx, and I wonder if it's not really what 
> I
> ought to be using if I want to have the latest configuration and more
usable
> or fully written help documentation.  I have version 1.51 Beta.  A
friend
> put it on my system, saying it's what he uses.  But is this out of 
> date?
If
> so, where do I go to download the latest version of CdEx?
>
> thanks.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kevin Lloyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:53 AM
> Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats
>
>
> Hi Daniel.
>
> CDEX will allow you to use a number of encoders to rip your music and
allow
> you to use constant or variable bit rates.  The WMA format is available
but
> not all bit rates are supported for the version of the encoder 
> included.
>
> Saying that, the default Lame encoder is regarded as one of the best 
> MP3
> encoders around and in comparison tests I've done myself and read 
> about,
it
> out performs WMA with most music genres.
>
> With regards to your question on burning the compressed MP3 or WMA 
> files
to
> CD, well, you have the choice when burning to either create an audio CD
for
> play in a standard CD player which will convert the compressed file 
> into
WAV
> and then CDDA or you can burn the files to a data CD which will burn
them
> exactly as they are on your hard drive.  That is, compressed.  There 
> are
> increasing numbers of players on the market now, both portable and
genuine
> hi-fi, that will play these data CD's with your MP3 music.  This means
you
> could have 10 albums or more on a single disc.  Kelly's point was
exactly
> this that MP3 is still the most popular compressed format and most well
> supported.  You wouldn't want to rip a collection of CD's into WMA and
find
> that you couldn't play them on anything else but your computer.  Maybe
you
> might now but chances are you'll want to take them with you at some
point
> and want to invest in a portable player.  Having them ripped into MP3
will
> give you a much greater choice of player when that day comes.
>
> Regards.
>
> Kevin
> E-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats
>
>
> > Hi Kelly,
> > thanks for responding.  I have a copy of CdEx, though I forget the
> version.
> > But it doesn't offer any .wma possibilities at all, only .mp3 and
.wav.
> > Does this mean I have an old version of it?  Someone else loaded it
onto
> my
> > system for me.  If I can update and see a more comprehensive array of
> > compression options, that'd be reassuring.
> >
> > Also, I confess I don't understand about wither a compressed file can
play
> > on a CD player:  From what I've learned so far, I have the impression
that
> > if you burn an .mp3 or other compressed music file to a CD, it will 
> > be
> > converted, either manually or, in some programs, automatically, to a
.wav
> > file to be burned.  Isn't this so?  If it is, then what does it 
> > matter
> > whether the file on your hard drive is .mp3 or .wma?
> >
> > Please explain further.  I'm educating myself with your help.
> > thanks,
> > Daniel
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Kelly Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "PC audio discussion list. " <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 3:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: Understanding and comparing compression formats
> >
> >
> > the options you mentioned with Windows media ripping are also
available
in
> > ripping MP3s with CDEX.  remember it is in Microsoft's interest to
make
> > windows Media appear to be a much more attractive experience than the
> > infinitely portable and compatible MP3 format.  With MP3 encoding,
files
> can
> > be encoded on various levels of quality, with fixed or variable bit
rates
> in
> > full stereo.
> >
> > One thing to consider is the likelihood that the files you rip can be
> played
> > on other people's computers with different kinds and versions of
software
> > and on portable devices in the present and future.  many CD players
can
> play
> > MP3 files but only a fraction of these can also play Windows Media
files.
> > to verify this, just go to bestbuy.com and review the portable CD
players
> > available for sale.  Most play MP3 files but only one can also play
> windows
> > Media files as well.
> >
> > I encode most of the music I rip in MP3 at 256 bit in full stereo at
the
> > very highest quality.
> >
> > Kelly
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Yardbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "PC-Audio" <Pc-audio@pc-audio.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:39 AM
> > Subject: Understanding and comparing compression formats
> >
> >
> > > I've just been learning how to rip music from CDs to my hard drive
using
> > > several different programs, and the one that interests me most at
> present
> > > is
> > > Windows Media Player because of the variety of formats it offers.
> > >
> > > As I explore and test these formats, one thing confuses me:  You 
> > > can
rip
> > > Windows Media Audio files about six different ways, not counting 
> > > the
> > > lossless option.  Now, I'm aware that .mp3 ripping can be adjusted
to
> use
> > > bit rates higher than the default 128 in order to restore a little
of
> the
> > > information that a lower bit rate strips out.
> > >
> > > but understanding that is simple compared to the range of .wma
options.
> > > Here's the main thing that puzzles me.  In the WMP menu for setting
your
> > > rip
> > > options, there are *two* sets of .wma options, each with its own
range
> of
> > > sound quality level.
> > >
> > > First is the .wma choice that uses a slider to provide you with,as 
> > > I
> > > recall,
> > > three levels of sound quality.  I've ripped the same track with all
> three,
> > > and not only listened to them-- the differences are audible to me,
> > > although
> > > pretty subtle compared to the difference between any of them and a
less
> > > compressed lossless or uncompress .wav version.  Still, for saving
> space,
> > > I
> > > appreciate the compression, so I remain interested.
> > >
> > > Okay.  So the smallest .wma sound quality level creates a really
small
> > > file,
> > > much smaller than the same tune ripped to .mp3.  And it doesn't
sound
> any
> > > worse than the .mp3, was my impression.  The next higher levels
create
> > > larger files, with the highest quality level creating a file for 
> > > any
> given
> > > track that's about the same size as a 192 bit rate .mp3.  If I go
this
> > > way,
> > > I'd suppose that's the method I'd use, so you get a little better
sound
> > > quality than an .mp3 for the same file size.
> > >
> > > But then, right beneath this on that menu, there's a variable bit
rate
> > > .wma
> > > option, again set by a slider, but this time starting at 0 per cent
and
> > > going up.  Zero per cent of what?  And, more to the point, if this
has
> to
> > > do
> > > with changing bit rates (doesn't the other method, I wonder?  How
else
> > > would
> > > you change quality except by varying the bit rate?) where are the
> > > indications for *what* bit rate this slider takes you through?
> > >
> > > So that's it.  I'm really wondering about this stuff as I try to
settle
> on
> > > a
> > > preferred rip method to set for my usual use.  Does anyone
understand
> > > whatever it is I'm not getting about these two adjustable .ma
formats?
> Is
> > > there anywhere to read a simple primer about them?  I don't feel 
> > > the
> need
> > > to
> > > do research if someone can just explain what it is I'm not
> understanding.
> > > But just in case there's some online information about this that
would
> > > clarify it all, that would be fine, too.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- 
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