Hi everybody, Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age.
Anyway, thanks everybody. -Alicia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> hey ho >> > > hi roman > > >> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a >> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through >> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to >> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a >> point. >> > > thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism > which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we > keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance. > > for example this > http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html > > If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. > to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a > deeper degree in the conversation. > It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a > funny advertisementlike max msp thread) > > I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in > Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some > practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women > that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed > and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not > 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in > our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web > programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!. > > I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem > was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until > the end ;) > > since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so > >> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously >> couldn't be established. >> > > i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to > propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, > argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high > mountains) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha > > and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is > not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we > face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the > world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to > this. > and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like > some good internet radio > > http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php > > I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular > complaint against this list although I can remember some situations > outside the list: > > - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah > yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do > that you don't have to do that. > > -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual > artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that > women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise. > > -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!) > > -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound > because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals > > but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that > participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep > on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media. > > it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that > would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around > why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces. > > > Alejandra > > > > >> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >>>> yves, >>>> I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe >>>> >>> (maybe >>> >>>> you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :)) >>>> >>> hi David and all, >>> I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some >>> examples >>> of greasy jokes: >>> >> yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this >> could be a basis for a real discussion. >> >> >>> From: João Miguel Pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm >>> >>> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2: >>> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. >>> [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a >>> humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks] >>> >> i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the >> first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult >> feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt, >> that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to >> provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or >> whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he >> succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the >> list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in >> order to question the ongoing discussion. >> >> accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do >> not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless >> of the intention. >> >> >>> I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts >>> is >>> just a bit too much for me to keep silent. >>> >> i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling >> someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here. >> >> roman >> >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. 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