Gary r, list I think, according to your rules, I’m’allowed’ to reply.
1] Since my understanding of the categories is that all three are fundamental, then I completely reject ’top-down guidance’..which to me, is deterministic for…open self-organized adaptation and evolution. And ALL three are ‘bottom-up' by which I mean that ALL three are foundational and interactional and there is no primacy of any one of the categories. And since I explain the triadic semiosic process and all three categories- then, this is absolutely nothing to do with ‘dyadic materialism’!! How on earth could you come to such a conclusion from a basic outline of a triadic semiosic process and three categories???? 2] Thermodynamic determinism’ ? Are you referring to the actual laws of physics? Energy can’t be created or destroyed; the entropy of an isolated system tends increase…Basic truths of physics. And I see the universe, as Peirce outlined, ..not moving to ‘concrete reasonableness’[ which implies a kind of utopia of reason’ but increasing diversity and complex interaction.. Remember, Firstness is basic…and habits can change. 3] Describing the sign unit [O-S-I] as an’information unit' doesn’t have a thing to do wth Shannon’s quantitative unit. I know you are trying to‘muddy and denigrate my analogies..but..these comparisons are fallacious. And yes- I DO use the terms ’input and ‘output’ without losing any of the Peircean analytic meanings. 4] Where didi I say that the categories are ’components of a process? Yes, the categories are modes of being..and as such, actually process, actually mould energy/matter into coherent existential forms. That’s their function. 5] And yet again - the almost automatic refusal to explore the Peircean framework beyond the text. Edwina > On Oct 25, 2025, at 5:38 PM, Gary Richmond <[email protected]> wrote: > > List, > > While comparisons between Peirce’s semiosis and complex adaptive systems > might prove illuminating, it seems to me crucial not to frame semiosis as a > bottom-up process. Peirce’s 3ns introduces top-down guidance through law and > habit just as fundamentally as 1ns introduces spontaneity and 2ns enforces > brute action-reaction. Removing that balance collapses semiosis into a > dyadic-materialist mechanism. > > Similarly, presenting the telos of semiosis as energy preservation leans > toward thermodynamic determinism, whereas Peirce saw the universe evolving > toward the growth of concrete reasonableness, that is, increasing embodiment > of habit and intelligibility. > > Terminologically, describing the sign relation (O-S-I) as an “information > unit” borrows from Shannon and implies an input-output model foreign to > Peirce’s irreducible triadic mediation. > > Finally, the categories are not “components” of a process but modes of being > that structure all process and relation. > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 5:21 PM Jeffrey Brian Downard <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Hello Edwina, List, >> >> I don't see the whole conversation as a coherent thread, so I've missed the >> back and forth. >> >> In short, I support the general claim that we can view the evolution of the >> cosmos as manifesting, at both local and global levels, the dynamics of >> complex adaptive systems. The hypothesis I see Peirce trying out in, for >> instance, A Guess at the Riddle, is that the evolution of the cosmos has a >> character analogous to the dynamics of the cycle of inquiry: manifesting >> patterns akin to hypothesis, deduction, and induction, as the drive or >> growth, and patterns akin to demonstration on the basis of systems of >> principles (i.e., theories) where established habits and natural laws >> govern. This, I think, is a hypothesis that has proven to be fruitful in >> many domains, and I suspect its fruitfulness will continue to growth in this >> century. >> >> Having said that, I not prepared to go so far as to say: "There is no goal, >> no final agenda, other than to prevent entropic dissipation of energy, and >> thus, maintain the energy content of the universe as ‘matter’ moulded within >> the self-organized rules of Mind." On my view, potential is a pretty rich >> sort of thing. As such, it isn't clear to me how much or how little of the >> evolution of ordered habits and growth of systems of laws manifests >> something more than a constraint that prevents the "prevent entropic >> dissipation of energy,." >> >> For my part, I see these sorts of questions as an invitation to engage in >> inquiry. The proof of the pudding will be in the tasting the results of >> those inquiries. For those taking up this sort of project, including the >> many at SFI, we have our work cut out for us. >> >> Yours, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> on >> behalf of Edwina Taborsky <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2025 1:34 PM >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Cc: Edwina Taborsky <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: [PEIRCE-L] The Universe as a CAS >> >> I am still stunned by the recent rejection of my claim that the Universe is >> a CAS [ complex adaptive system] by three scholars on this list - none of >> whom had the faintest idea what a CAS actually is. >> >> Here’s a brief outline: >> Complex adaptive systems (CAS) represent a framework for understanding how >> intricate, dynamic networks of interacting agents give rise to emergent >> behaviors that are greater than the sum of their parts. These systems are >> characterized by decentralized control, adaptation through learning or >> evolution, nonlinear interactions, and the ability to self-organize in >> response to environmental changes. In essence, CAS thrive on feedback loops, >> diversity, and resilience, often exhibiting unpredictable yet patterned >> outcomes. This concept, popularized by thinkers like John Holland and Murray >> Gell-Mann through the Santa Fe Institute, transcends disciplines, offering >> insights into everything from ant colonies to stock markets. >> >> My point of course, is that Peirce’s semiosic framework, made up of the >> basic triad of an ‘information unit’, [O-S-I] … comparable to those >> ‘interacting agents in the CAS - operating within the three categories of >> Firstness, Secondness and Thirdness function within a decentralized and >> non-determined process ,[bottom up] adaptation through ‘learning and >> evolution’ , non-linear interactions..and self-organization..to develop and >> maintain our universe. >> >> There is no goal, no final agenda, other than to prevent entropic >> dissipation of energy, and thus, maintain the energy content of the universe >> as ‘matter’ moulded within the self-organized rules of Mind. I therefore >> think that it would be interesting if not productive to explore this >> dynamic, using the Peircean basic framework, within not only the biological >> realm - but- even the societal, economic and political realms. >> >> Edwina >> >> >> >> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >> ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON >> PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> . >> ► <a href="mailto:[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>">UNSUBSCRIBE FROM PEIRCE-L</a> . But, >> if your subscribed email account is not your default email account, then go >> to >> https://list.iu.edu/sympa/signoff/peirce-l . >> ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and >> co-managed by him and Ben Udell. > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON > PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . > ► <a href="mailto:[email protected]";>UNSUBSCRIBE FROM PEIRCE-L</a> > . But, if your subscribed email account is not your default email account, > then go to > https://list.iu.edu/sympa/signoff/peirce-l . > ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and > co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . ► <a href="mailto:[email protected]";>UNSUBSCRIBE FROM PEIRCE-L</a> . But, if your subscribed email account is not your default email account, then go to https://list.iu.edu/sympa/signoff/peirce-l . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
