BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }Great - I admit I'm surprised we have gotten this far in agreement - and both of us can continue to reflect on these and other issues...
Edwina On Fri 02/02/18 8:16 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com sent: Edwina, List: In that case, I am content for now with the level of agreement that we have managed to achieve, and thus will not press the matter any further at this time. I intend to reread and reflect on Peirce's relevant texts like "New Elements" (1904) and "Pragmatism" (1907) as I continue to ponder the Immediate Object, collateral experience, habits of interpretation, etc. Regards, Jon S. On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 6:05 PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: Jon - yes, I see the Representamen quite differently from you. I think you see it as passive - it 'stands for the Object to the Interpretant'. Whereas, I see it as an active force of mediation and transformation. I see it, at least when it is in the mode of Thirdness - and most of the ten classes do have it in that mode [6/10] - as a force of general laws which are applied to the incoming sensate data of the IO, to transform/mediate it into the Interpretants. Most certainly, even if the sensation in the IO of the bird was new, the laws held within the general habits of the Representamen, would be capable of dealing with it by some neural pattern. But - we must also consider that in some cases - the laws/habits cannot deal with it - and the sensations/input are rejected as 'noise'. I also disagree that the Representamen only comes into existence because of its Dynamic Object. The bird couldn't exist without its infrastructure of physical-chemical and biological laws. The Representamen as Mind - akin to Aristotle's Form - exists within the matter - and as general - it exists as long as the matter exists....as long as the bird exists.. Admittedly, that bird only exists when it is in semiosic interaction with its external envt, i.e., with other Dynamic Objects. I'm Ok with 'determines' implying constraint...etc.. Edwina On Fri 02/02/18 5:05 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com [2] sent: Edwina, List: Yes, I acknowledge that your definition of the Representamen is much broader than mine. Nevertheless, when I say that the neural pattern stands for the loud sound, I am not implying anything mechanical; I am simply repeating verbatim Peirce's own statement, which he wrote many times throughout his life, of what a Sign or Representamen does with respect to its Object (CP 5.286, 1868; CP 7.355, 1873; EP 2:13, 1895; CP 2.228, c.1897; CP 8.119, 1902; CP 2.92, 1902; CP 1.538, 1903; EP 2:407, 1907; CP 1.339, undated). As I understand it, the key difference between semiology and semeiotic in this regard is that Saussure was content to treat this as a strictly dyadic relation in which the Signifier stands for the Signified, while Peirce insisted (rightly) that it is an irreducibly triadic relation in which the Sign stands for the Object to the Interpretant. Even if the bird's sensation (IO) was "totally new"--i.e., different from anything that any bird had ever experienced before--it would still be represented within that bird by some neural pattern, and that is what I would identify as the Representamen accordingly. Furthermore, while I agree that the bird's neurological habits and learned stimuli are part of the overall process of semiosis, I do not see how they can be "located" in the Representamen. As you said, those habits are general, not to mention already operative within the bird before the loud sound occurs; but any given Representamen only comes into existence because of its (Dynamic) Object. If the loud sound had not happened when and where it did, then the bird's corresponding neural pattern would not have manifested when it did. I am not sure how much (if anything) is riding on the term "determines." I am inclined to think that this is just a verbal form of what Peirce elsewhere called the relation between the Object and the Sign, and by extension the relation between the Sign and the Interpretant. CSP: ... every sign is determined by its object, either first, by partaking in the characters of the object, when I call the sign an Icon; secondly, by being really and in its individual existence connected with the individual object, when I call the sign an Index; thirdly, by more or less approximate certainty that it will be interpreted as denoting the object, in consequence of a habit (which term I use as including a natural disposition), when I call the sign a Symbol. (CP 4.531; 1906) CSP: ... the Object determines (i.e., renders definitely to be such as it will be) the Sign in a particular manner. (EP 2:487; 1908) CSP: A Sign is a Cognizable that, on the one hand, is so determined (i.e., specialized, bestimmt) by something other than itself, called its Object ... while, on the other hand, it so determines some actual or potential Mind, the determination whereof I term the Interpretant created by the Sign, that that Interpreting Mind is therein determined mediately by the Object. (EP 2:492; 1909) Especially in light of that last quote, it carries in my mind the connotation of constraining or narrowing, rather than dictating; i.e., reducing the range of possibilities, but not (by itself) mandating one in particular. This is evident in how Peirce invokes it when discussing whether a given correlate or relation can or must be a Possible, an Existent, or a Necessitant according to the ten trichotomies of his late attempts at Sign classification. CSP: It is evident that a Possible can determine nothing but a Possible; it is equally so that a Necessitant can be determined by nothing but a Necessitant. Hence it follows from the Definition of a Sign that since the Dynamoid Object determines the Immediate Object, which determines the Sign itself, which determines the Destinate Interpretant, which determines the Effective Interpretant, which determines the Explicit Interpretant, the six trichotomies, instead of determining 729 classes of signs, as they would if they were independent, only yield 28 classes; and if, as I strongly opine (not to say almost prove) there are four other trichotomies of signs of the same order of importance, instead of making 59,049 classes, these will only come to 66. (EP 2:481; 1908) Here we also have one of the alternate sets of names for the three Interpretants, which has caused a lot of consternation for me and others who have sought to arrange the trichotomies into the proper "order of determination." Without trying to resolve that conundrum--at least, not yet--your points about the Final Interpretant are well-taken, and likewise require further consideration. I suspect that Perice's different labels--Final, Ultimate, Normal, Eventual, etc.--reflect different emphases as he himself tried to work everything out, but never quite landed on a definitive and satisfactory scheme; "I confess that my own conception of this third interpretant is not yet quite free from mist" (CP 4.536; 1906). However, if we end up taking the Final Interpretant to be a habit, this will entail that it is not a matter of "truth" or "assertion of accuracy," since those can be attributed only to propositions; instead, it will be a matter of meaning, in accordance with the pragmatic maxim. The bird presumably has the general tendency (but not mechanical necessity) to flee whenever that specific neural pattern occurs, even if it is not actually prompted by a loud sound; i.e., when it misrepresents some other phenomenon as a loud sound. Thanks again, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USAProfessional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Laymanwww.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSch midt [3] - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt [4] On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: Jon - a few comments: I agree with all of the phases except for your outline of the Representamen. I don't agree that the 'neural pattern stands for the loud sound. That's too mechanical for my view. It sets up the neural pattern simply as an iconic system. What would happen if the sensation - was totally new and if there was 'no neural pattern'? I see the Representamen as the habits of organization of matter/mind. In this case, the general neurological 'habits' that enables the bird to interact with both common and novel stimuli. I also see the Representamen, at least in species that can learn, as consisting also of the learned stimuli. A dog, for instance, might be at first, neurologically, terrified of the vacuum cleaner but will/may learn to accept it as harmless. I also have a problem with the notion of 'determines' although I am aware that Peirce used the term but I wonder if his meaning was similar to modern usage which inserts intentionality to the word. I'll have to think a bit further on your outline of the FI but it seems quite plausible to me. By 'general tendency' do you mean confined to the one individual or to the collective? Peirce seems to consider the FI as a property of the collective rather than the individual. I think his FI is associated with the 'truth' of the nature of the DO; that is, the FI asserts that our interpretations of the DO are accurate. This could only be carried out by a collective, since an individual could remain locked into their invalid interpretation all their life [I KNOW that house is haunted]. Otherwise - yes - we are indeed making progress! Edwina On Fri 02/02/18 11:25 AM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com sent: Edwina, List: I has been a pleasant (and presumably mutual) surprise to discover that, at least in the specific example of a bird fleeing upon hearing a loud sound, our analyses of the semiosis involved are substantially in agreement after all. *The Dynamic Object (DO) is the loud sound itself. *The Immediate Object (IO) is the bird's sensation of the loud sound. *The Representamen (R) is, or at least includes, the bird's neural pattern that stands for the loud sound. *The Immediate Interpretant (II) is the range of possible effects of this neural pattern on the bird. *The Dynamic Interpretant (DI) is the actual effect of this neural pattern on the bird, which is its flight. What remains unresolved is the "location" of the bird's collateral experience and habits of interpretation; hence the new subject line. This is an aspect of Peirce's overall semeiotic that I have been wondering about for quite some time. You place them within (or as) the R, but I am still having a hard time seeing it that way in light of Peirce's definition (in multiple places) of the R as that which stands for the Object to the Interpretant. My sense is that these elements are instead somehow bound up in what it means for the Object to determine the Sign to determine the Interpretant; i.e., collateral experience is what enables the bird to "recognize" its sensation as corresponding to the loud sound, while a habit of interpretation--whether instinctive, learned, or both--is what prompts the bird's response to be flight, rather than any of the other possible effects. One alternative is to designate the habit of interpretation as the one correlate that is missing above--the Final Interpretant (FI). Up until now, my working hypothesis has been that the FI is defined as the habit of feeling/action/thought--i.e., the habit of interpretation--that the Sign would produce. However, I had in mind the habit that the Receiver (in this case, the bird) would develop after sufficient repetition of the same Representamen (in this case, the neural pattern that stands for the loud sound). I am starting to wonder if instead we should define the FI as the general tendency that governs (but does not mechanically dictate) which actual DI is produced by a particular Sign from among the various possibilities that correspond to its II. The FI would then be the cumulative effect of all previous instances of semiosis that are somehow relevant to this particular encounter with this particular Sign. I will stop there and ask again--what do you think? Feedback from others would also be very welcome. Thanks, Jon S. 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