Thank you sir for the nice feedback. You have stated the points that I wrote even more clearly and forcefully than I did.
On Tue, 1 Oct, 2024, 2:07 am Gary Richmond, <[email protected]> wrote: > Suteerth, List, > > Welcome to the Peirce-L forum. If you've read the notes by the founder and > first moderator of the forum, Joe Ransdell, then you know that this is a > very democratic place -- exactly an intellectual forum -- where both > seasoned scholars, philosophical novices, and students are equally welcome > should they have an interest in Peirce's work or Peirce-related topics. > They are especially encouraged to contribute to on-going discussions, or to > introduce new ones. > > Regarding your brief philosophical paragraph (in the future I'd suggest > that, for readability, you consider breaking up long paragraphs into much > shorter ones). For now I'll just paste some of what I wrote to you > (slightly modified) shortly after you sent it to me off List as perhaps a > kind of motivation for others here to discuss your thesis with you and > others. > > GR: You outline what you see to be the practical consequence of the > understanding that abstract entities -- viz., these four: moral values, > scientific laws, educational processes, and economic principles -- are > *real*, even though they don't have physical existence. While this is > well enough understood among Peirce scholars, I think your outline is of > potential interest to some here. > > As to morality you argue that this understanding -- -- supports > universal human rights and provides an objective basis for justice, thus > potentially strengthening the moral and legal framework of societies. In > science > it is an aid to investigating non-material phenomena, encouraging an ever > more open-minded approach to understanding this aspect of reality. In > education it emphasizes inquiry-based learning wherein authentic doubt and > vital curiosity lead to better understanding. And finally, in economics, > it tends to reveal the human behavioral underpinnings of economic cycles, > suggesting that understanding feelings and actions can help in better > predicting and managing economic outcomes. > > Overall, you appear to be suggesting that Peirce's philosophy aids us in > appreciating the reality of abstract relationships and processes, promoting > a deeper, more integrated grasp and appreciation of the world across > disciplines. > > > I agree! And I would especially like to emphasize its 'promoting a deeper, > more integrated grasp and appreciation of the world *across disciplines*'. > When I -- hopefully -- find the time, it is this transdisciplinary idea > that I'd like to further explore with you. > > [You will notice that I modified the Subject of this thread to emphasize > your thesis.] > > Gary Richmond (writing as moderator of Peirce-L) > > On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 1:11 AM suteerth vajpeyi < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I have written a small philosophical paragraph as contribution for the >> forum in the hope that it may help me have a fulfilling philosophical >> discussion with other like minds. >> While reading Bernard Bolzano's "wissenschaftslehre" in its >> english translation, I was bewildered by a certain remark made >> there.Bolzano says that there are entities like "ideas in themselves", " >> propositions in themselves" that have reality but do not actually exist ! >> What could he possibly mean by that ? How can a non-existent thing be real >> ? I found its answer in the writings of charles s. peirce. It is important >> to understand what these two philosophers have in mind when they speak of >> the real and the existent. By real, Peirce means that which exists >> independently of thought or imagination and hence anything which can be >> objectively discovered or determined. What is existent on the other hand, >> is what enters into relations with other things. It is related by way of >> spatial location and temporal relation to various other things. With this >> definition, it becomes easy to make sense of Bolzano's remark. >> "Propositions in themselves" such as 'the gravitational force between two >> masses varies inversely with the square of their distance' are real. They >> can be discovered objectively but it would be absurd to say that the law of >> gravitation exists at a particular location and time or in a certain >> relation to other physical things. >> Peirce's three categories make this distinction clearer. By >> firstness, peirce means quality, by secondness relation and by thirdness >> representation. A quality like redness is real. It can be objectively >> discovered. Does redness have relation to other objects? No. So it does not >> exist in the sense just discussed. Take a relation now. A relation such as >> 'being taller than' is impossible without two or more relata. Indeed space >> and time are simply the discovery of relations between things determined by >> various forms of measurement. So relations are real and exist. Finally, a >> representation may be either real or unreal. For example, the facade of a >> house in the form of a rectangular face serves as a representation in our >> minds of an object which we know to have a pentagonal cross-section. If by >> the rectangular aspect we are deceived into thinking that the house is >> cuboidal then our representation is unreal. It cannot be discovered >> independently by another observer standing at some other location with >> respect to our house. >> We can now also see why peirce seems to represent seemingly different >> things by the terms firstness, secondness and thirdness. Other things >> designated by these terms include possibility, reality and law. A quality >> does not exist inspite of being real. So it is a possibility, waiting to be >> exemplified in a specific object. Relations occur only in the outside world >> where the relata exist. Finally a representation whether real or unreal is >> something that will determine the future course of our actions and hence >> become a law or habit depending on whether it is real or unreal >> respectively. Similiarly firstness is said to be associated with feeling >> (that is detecting qualities of things), secondness with action (changing >> the relations of things) and thirdness with thought (as per peirce all >> thought proceeds via using signs). Some authors (like the distinguished >> philosopher of science - ernest nagel) have taken peirce to task in their >> writings, arguing that what peirce exactly means by his three categories is >> hopelessly vague. That peirce seems to divide everything un-necessarily >> into threes. But there is method to this seeming madness. The great >> philosopher of the twentieth century, alfred north whitehead distinguished >> three modes of thought. The mode of presentational immediacy or feeling, >> the mode of causal efficacy or action and the mixed mode of sign-reference >> or thought. If one applies these three modes of thought to every possible >> subject matter then one naturally ends up dividing things into threes. For >> example signs which resemble their objects work by communicating a thing's >> qualities to us, apealing to feeling and are called icons, signs which work >> by being interlocked in a close relation with their objects, appealing to >> action and are called indices and symbols which work by representing their >> objects by convention or in other words by appealing to thought. >> Ok, now why should we be interested in this discussion? Or in >> Peirce's words, what are the practical consequences of this small bit of >> philosophy? Let us start with morality. Moral values are real (objectively >> discoverable) but non-existent (because they transcend the particularities >> of a location or an age). This means that a person's fundamental rights, >> his right to life, property and liberty can be discovered and defended >> independently of whether they have been granted by one's rulers or not. >> This (the discoverability of justice) is the basis of the judiciary system >> of our modern day democracies. Moving over to science, there was great >> perplexity in the 19th century regarding the nature of light. For a long >> time, scientists sought to explain electromagnetic waves as the oscillation >> of an electric ether that was massless. People just refused to believe that >> there could exist firstness or in other words, pure possibilities like >> lines of electromagnetic force in a vacuum. They could not understand that >> undulations in electromagnetic force could exist independently of whether >> there is or is not an object affected by the force.They were two-category >> metaphysicians. One can at this point also see why Peirce supported realism >> as opposed to nominalism. He realised that scientific laws for example, are >> real but non-existent. Hence universals or abstractions must be real. But >> what about people who are not scientists or moral philosophers ? Let us >> turn now to pedagogy. Mrs. phyllis chiasson has ably written an article for >> the relevance of peirce's metaphysics to educational theory in the commens >> encyclopedia. Self education and inquiry employ the same modes of thought >> as enunciated by Peirce. First we are made aware of our ignorance by an >> unexpected event. This makes us curious. We have a feeling of doubt. To >> quench this doubt we come up with a hypothesis, checking it by our actions >> except in mathematics although if we count construction of models and >> performance of algebraic operations as actions then we have no exceptions. >> Finally we think and modify the firmness of our beliefs accordingly along >> with our future habits as well. Economics- economists of the keynesian >> school vs economists of the austrian school have contrasting views on the >> effects of mild inflation on economic growth. One side contends that mild >> inflation has been found to be strongly associated statistically, with >> economic growth. The other contends that the 'growth' triggered by mild >> inflation is made up of malinvestments which when they become liquidated >> result in a cycle of boom and bust in stock markets. Who is right ? >> Economic laws are an example of thirdness. If we agree that the laws of >> economics are due to the tendency of man to take up habits with each action >> taken by a person then what actions drive the growth seen in association >> with mild inflation ? It so happens that human beings are fond of their >> earnings. So when they find their savings pool deteriorating in value, they >> seek to augment their wealth to compensate the decline in value of their >> savings. The most common way to do this is via investments. The threshold >> for making unsafe investments gets lowered when people face inflation. It >> also triggers people to consume their savings faster before they >> deteriorate in value. When these malinvestments at the micro level >> liquidate, we face a recession at the macro level. Thus we explain economic >> laws by action and action by feelings of human beings, employing the three >> different modes of the mind as stated by peirce and whitehead all the while >> checking our results by observing reality. >> >> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >> ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at >> https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at >> https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all >> the links! >> ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON >> PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to >> [email protected] . >> ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to >> [email protected] with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the >> message and nothing in the body. More at >> https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . >> ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; >> and co-managed by him and Ben Udell. > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at > https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at > https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the > links! > ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON > PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to > [email protected] . > ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to > [email protected] with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the > message and nothing in the body. More at > https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . > ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and > co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the links! ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in the body. More at https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
