I think there has been some misunderstanding of Bill's position on unions on pen-l. He has never, as far as I can remember, opposed unions per se, but rather been highly critical of the behaviour of current unions [particularly in Australia and France] with respect to the big issues of today -- in particular, the ecology, the bomb, and equality -- and in endorsing (in the Case of the ACTU) an increasingly neo-liberal program (disguised in the ALU-ACTU's recent Accords). I have no quarrel with this critique except, as I indicated in previous posts, I think Bill goes to fa, even in his 'private' posts to pen-l. Although I have some knowledge about the Oz labour situation, I am by no means an expert so I will restrict my comments to the North American situation. Part of the 'post-war accord' between labour, capital and the state, workers were granted the right to organize and bargain collectively for a proportionate share of economic growth _in exchange for explicitly giving up any challenge to the capitalist mode of production and its industrial manifestation, management rights_. In Canada, institutions and ideology inherited from Britain and British socialism, however, allowed for more insistence on state provision of social services and the maintenance of a 'labour type' third party which was particularly successful in introducing social legislation via the provincial governments. The weakness of the states and the much more business-unionism ideology in the US ("more, more, more!" - Gompers) precluded the government from similar action, or at least to the same extent. Can we expect then that unions would not retreat into protecting narrow self-advantage when the post-war boom came to a halt and that they would not be forced into defending positions won at the cost of so much effort in the previous three decades? Particularly since by and large the intellectual socialist leaders had written the unions off and looked down their noses at them. Unions have never (except by the syndicalists) been seen as the agency of social transformation. Marx et al saw them for what they were, potential 'schools for socialism', something that I can attest to as a result of our recent strike. It was amazing how much 'education' the strike had on the 'guild' (as Terrence would brand us) re the ruthlessness of the neo-liberal agenda. Similarly, recent strikes by emergency room doctors, and the current attack on our school teachers. This is the sense that I think the French strike and unions should be seen, despite the fact that the railway drives abandoned the social cause once they achieved the objective over which they struck. But unions have another major role, at least here. They give a sense of community to the people we work with and protect individuals within that community from victimization by management. I think it is vital that this function not be forgotten. The union if it works well prevents the alienation of the individual from companion workers and, at least to some extent, prevents workers from being used to put one against the other. In Canada, at least, it was the unions that pioneered maternity leave, day care, and a host of other so-called "women's issues" in the workplace. The biggest problem, which Bill has focussed on, is the failure of the unions to face up to the environmental issue. But that is changing, particularly as the unions come to realize that 'green' technology is more labour-intensive (if not so high-paying) than environmentally destructive technology, particularly as employers and governments increase the frenzy of their labour-shucking. But, perhaps we should take much of the blame for that since we, supposedly, are the intellectuals with the bigger view or understanding of the economy and the ecology. Perhaps we should look to the beam in our own eye. Collectively, Paul Phillips, University of Manitoba