I was hoping to avoid more e-mail messages until after my vacation. But I can't let Gil's message stand as is. (To paraphrase Peter Burns' famous relative, the best-laid plans of Marx and men oft gang aglay.) Gil writes that >>to say that profit is equivalent to an economic rent is to *deny* the Smithian and neoclassical notion that profits are essentially a payment for a socially necessary service provided by capitalists. This denial strikes me as part of the essence of Marx's critique of vulgar political economy. To put it the other way around, to *deny* that surplus value is consistent with economic rent is to *agree* with Adam Smith and the neoclassicals that profit represents a payment for socially necessary risk-taking, or correspondingly that interest represents a payment for socially necessary "abstinence."<< No, that doesn't follow. Gil's formulation assumes that there are _only_ two kinds of payments that can be made to someone: a payment that's needed in order to for a evoke a service and rent. But there is a third: taxes, which results from coercion. I argue in a soon-to-be published paper in Bill Dugger's book on Radical Theories of Inequality that if one wants to use mainstream language to explain a consistent and coherent Marxian theory of exploitation (the origins of surplus-value), it's best described as "taxation without representation." Profits result from the force applied by the state to preserve capitalist property, the structural coercion resulting from the reserve army of involuntarily unemployed labor, and the instrumental coercion of managers (threatening workers with joblessness, etc.) (This is _not_ perfectly analogous to taxes, but my paper deals with that issue. Also, in the case of taxes, whether or not there's that flow of income actually can be termed "exploitation" -- in some ethical sense of the word -- depends on how those funds are used and how decisions are made about their use. The fact that the capitalists receive their taxes paid by workers (surplus-value) without the latter being represented in the decisions about their use suggests that these taxes are indeed exploitative. Actual state-imposed taxes need not be so, since they might reflect the popular will of the workers.) The kind of exploitation that Gil is talking about above ("the essence of Marx's critique of vulgar political economy," profits as a result of scarcity rents) is that which Henry George applied to land-owners, Keynes applied to rentiers, and Roemer applied to the capitalist class as a whole. These theories aren't wrong as much as _superficial_ compared to Marx's theory (as I understand it); that is, they are explained by Marx's theory. In order to stick to my resolution just a little bit (and to avoid repetition of stuff that I've posted before), I'll leave it at that, except to note that Gil's "relative scarcity" corresponds to what Marshall called "quasi-rents." in pen-l solidarity, Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] <74267,[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Econ. Dept., Loyola Marymount Univ. 7900 Loyola Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90045-8410 USA 310/338-2948 (daytime, during workweek); FAX: 310/338-1950 "It takes a busload of faith to get by." -- Lou Reed.