This discussion is of no interest to the list. Why don't you two carry it on
off the list?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Okey, I don't have time but I will respond!
>
> Ricardo wrote:
>
> >Mine,
>
> >Am only trying to argue that one cannot take on such a huge moral
> >burden as "liberation of third world from western oppression", or
> >from capitalism, without examining one's social position within the
> >West.
>
> Who argued for the liberation of the third world ONLY? The Marxist
> position is that one can not be liberated without the entire world being
> liberated. This is a true "internationalist" position, not a rhetorical
> third worldism. In so far as one part of the world benefits at the
> expense of others and a large OBSERVABLE gap exists, it is incorrect to
> imply that there is no problem with what is going.I am trying to identify
> the problem in the first place. The problem is that the world system is
> charecterized by multiple hierarchies with each staying at the top of
> hierarchy by extracting resources from the others. US, as the global
> hegemon, teaches Asians how to become capitalists so that Asian ruling
> classes can exploit their own working classes and labor in the region.
> We are not living in the WEST, as you claim we are. We are living in a
> world system charecterized by systemic inequalities. Your reluctance to
> see these inequalities prevents you from even taking aN hypothetical
> attitude to your own ruling classes.
>
> Remeber Marx's discussion of primitive accumulation. In that specific
> historical chapter of CAPITAL, Marx argues that the development of
> capitalism was possible by a forceful of "expropriation" of population
> from the land and formation of "free" workers thrown into cities as
> "rightless" proleterians. Coercion, not free will, was internal to
> capitalism to establish itself. What Marx identified hundred
> years ago has been taking place at the world system level as each country
> becomes capitalist. They go through the same sucking realities of British
> capitalism. Marx talked about how the factory conditions were resembling
> "slave labor" in Britian (including child labor).Marx also talked about
> how the development of British capitalism was contingent upon imperialism,
> colonialism and slave labor initially. Whether you beleive it or not,
> these things still continue. Are you gonna deny these REALITIES?. Are you
> gonna deny that the hourly wage labor in Dominican Republic is $1.64? Are
> you gonna deny that Nike capitalists are beating Vietnamese women? Are you
> gonna deny that Taliban fundamentalists stone women to death with the
> tanks barrowed from the West? Are you gonna deny that the US sells guns to
> Turkey (and its ruling classes)for killing Kurdish people, as well as its
> own Turkish progressives?
>
> >There's a real moral dilemma when a person living in it up in
> >the West demands that the TW refrain from western
> >There's a real moral dilemma when a person living in it up in
> >the West demands that the TW refrain from western
> >consumerism/technologies, or when a TW immigrant who is really
> >westernized though still pretends to be from the TW,
> >receives a hundred thousand or more salary, collects
> >large research grants, has a lot of time off from teaching, as well
> >as many opportunities for travel and lecturing around the world - like
> >going
> >to Vienna, the old capital of the Austro-Hungarian empire,
> >criticizing the West,
>
> 1. This is indeed WRONG and politically problematic. Earning a western
> salary should not prevent you from criticizing capitalism. According to
> your logic, then, Marx should have never got his law degree at University
> of Berlin, or, Engels should have never worked as a clerk in export
> business and written articles for press. So what is the point with
> this political correctness for my sake? All of us are trapped in this big
> dilemma of trying to criticize capitalism and securing a position in the
> intellectual market place (unfortunately). You always bring this issue of
> foreigners' salary and third worldism card. Why? Many american (and
> western) leftist intellectuals also criticize the west and american
> militarism. I am really pissed when somebody "orientalizes" my identity
> (where are you Said?) to imply that I don't have the right to criticize
> what is unjust since I am so and so. Why is this "salary" issue a moral
> dilemma for us ONLY, WHILE IT IS ALSO A MORAL DILEMMA FOR YOU? Why do you
> persistenly create artifical distinctions for foreigners? From what I see,
> you are making vulgar culturalism here.
>
> 2. btw, I don't even own a salary.I am a foreign phd student trying to
> survive here.
>
>
> >or pretending to speak for the "peasant class"
> >or believing that their "radical" writing is a form of political
> >engagement with "popular struggle".
>
> Who is saying this? Give example..
>
> >Be honest with yourself (and I
> >don't me you personally, Mine, nor anyone here: you are carrying an
> >argument with other cultural elites. Nothing wrong with that.
>
> I am NOT a cultural elite. Evidently, you are, not me. I rejected the
> the dominant culture (US) and my own culture many moons ago.
>
> I am a true cosmopolitan, which is more than what you are.. You don't know
> my political history so let's stop here!
>
> Mine Doyran
> Phd student
> Political Science
> SUNY/Albany
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
