I know that Michael wants this to stop, and this will
be my only post on it. But as a witness (and sometime
participant) to much of what has been referred to, and in
perhaps an effort to bring Jerry around to where he can
stop chewing on old bones in public, I am posting this
anyhow (sorry, Michael, silence on this after this).
First off: Yes, let's all "take a stand against
homophobia, cop baiting, sexism, death threats, anti-labor
activism, etc." (not sure what is included in that "etc."
but we'll let that pass). Have the accused been guilty of
making statements on the internet or engaging in actions
off the net that could be interepreted as fitting in with
these designations? YES. They are GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!
Let me be more specific:
1) Jerry is correct that Mark Jones made his bizarre
and indefensible statement about NLR on m-i. GUILTY!
(homophobia, cop-baiting, and?...)
2) Jerry is correct that Louis once made
inappropriate statements to Jerry's boss. GUILTY!
(anti-labor activism, and?...) That particular incident
has been vetted at length on this list some time ago. At
the time I largely sided with Jerry, although thought and
still think that he way overreacted.
3) On the original marxism list, Louis went on a
vendetta against bob malecki, who was on this list for a
brief period of time (remember the bad spelling?). Bob had
posted his autobiography which was quite a wonder,
including his tales of anti-Vietnam War activism and a lot
of bizarre events that might reflect that he took enough
LSD to make Hunter S. Thompson look like "Calmy and Clearly
Thinking in Las Vegas." Louis decided that malecki was an
FBI agent and went on a bender. In the end the best Louis
could come up with was some minor factual goofs and of
course some hallucinatory episodes. But he failed in his
main effort. It may well have been lnp's lowest moment.
GUILTY! (cop-baiting, and?...)
This episode was nearly repeated recently when Louis
almost sent an FOIA to the FBI and CIA about "Murray."
However, this time he had the sense to back off when
requested to do so by various list managers. Although it
has been roundly denied, many continue to suspect that this
was the straw that broke the back of Spoons support of the
marxism lists, despite Louis's backing off.
All right, so they're guilty as hell, Jerry, and I
have just roundly denounced them for you again, public
flaying and all that. So, waddayawannadoboudit? Should
Michael P. purge them? Should we have serial denunciations
of them in which every list participant opens by whacking
them for their various awful statements and actions? It is
clear that Michael P. is very uninterested and
unsympathetic in any such endeavors and I support him in
this.
The main reason is that I think that cyberspace is
evolving, that people can actually learn to behave better
and that some do so (also, Michael runs a tight ship so
that most participants know that major crap will not be
tolerated).
Mark's egregeious remarks occurred last spring on m-i.
This was the period when there was all-out war over
Stalin's Moscow Trials. You wanted Adolfo Olaechea removed
for his death threats (oh yes, I forgot to denounce those
as well: Mark, GUILTY!) Adolfo wanted various people,
including a list moderator (Zeynep, long gone, whatever
happened to her anyway?) removed because she opposed
removing people who criticized Stalin. Mark was very
frenzied back then and blew up frequently at lots of
people, myself included. A bunch of them (Adolfo, Mark,
some others) ran off to the LeninList until it blew up in
an ideological frenzy when many of them returned. Mark has
been much better behaved since his return (although he
pulled some nasty pot shots on marxism-thaxis not too long
ago). He has even recently been on the receiving end of
denunciations by Adolfo for not being 100% supportive of
old Uncle Joe.
I have frequently noted that Louis P. has much
improved. I think that he has learned his lesson, that
flaming is a self-defeating game. When I look at the
various participants in this, I can look at what we might
call the flame/substance ratio. In the cases of both Mark
and Louis, their flame/substance ratios have fallen
dramatically. I think that they should be applauded for
this and further encouraged, not continually and ritually
denounced, flayed, and purged. Is this what you really
want, Jerry?
Jerry, you have your OPE-L with its closed archive
where you can discuss pure theory. Pen-l is doing fine,
even if the volume is down since the appearance of lbo-talk
(which you won't go on because Doug H. is another person on
your shit list: which crimes is he guilty of? (no, please
don't tell us!)).
So, who is it for whom the flame/substance ratio has
been not only not decreasing, but increasing? I am afraid,
Jerry, that it is you. It is not because you are flaming
more, but because you have been posting substantively less.
I suspect that it is the observation of this ratio over a
long period of time that has led Michael P. and a lot of
the rest of us to lack sympathy for your complaints and to
ask you to cut it out. Maybe you shouldn't let bygones be
bygones, but most of us are by now well aware of the
imperfections of some of our fellow posters.
I strongly suggest that you make a serious effort to
lower your flame/substance ratio, particularly by raising
the denominator. I concur with Michael P. that you are
credible, intelligent, and articulate about many subjects
that get discussed on this list. Let's hear those
offerings, please!
Barkley Rosser
On Fri, 22 May 1998 08:03:43 -0700 michael
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This has to stop! I contacted Louis yesterday and asked him not to respond to
> Jerry's last post. He graciously agreed. We have better things to do than
> engage in flame wars.
>
> As I understand, this is the sort of behavior that ended the marxism lists.
> Please, Jerry, on all other subjects you seem admirable in every respect. You
> have to stop this.
>
> Gerald Levy wrote:
>
> > I tried to send the following to the list yesterday. For some mysterious
> > reason, it wasn't posted even though it didn't bounce back to me as
> > undeliverable. Strange.
> >
> > But, before returning to the original issue under discussion, I want to
> > disagree somewhat with Paul Z: indeed there are certain principles for
> > socialists, including but not limited to: solidarity, internationalism,
> > opposition to imperialism, opposition to exploitation and oppression, etc.
> >
> > As for the more precise question of whether Mark Jones and Proyect are
> > principled, I believe the following post offers a definitive answer. But,
> > in case there are ***any*** doubts about Mark J, remember what he had to
> > say:
> >
> > He wrote that:
> >
> > The _New Left Review_ is a "faggot-valhalla" controlled by M16!
> >
> > Did you hear that? I'll repeat it again ...
> >
> > Mark Jones wrote that:
> >
> > ***The _New Left Review_ is a "faggot-valhalla" controlled by M16!***
> >
> > Did the significance of that statement sink in yet? So that you can't
> > forget, let me repeat for a third time ...
> >
> > Mark Jones wrote that:
> >
> > ***THE _NEW LEFT REVIEW_ IS A "FAGGOT-VALHALLA" CONTROLLED BY M16!***
> >
> > Jones sounds like Lyndon LaRouche, doesn't he? He wrote the above on a
> > Internet mailing list (M-INT). He not only refused to apologize but even
> > defended it afterwards to the list. You don't have to take my word for
> > this: you can check-out the M-INT archives. Doug H was on that list at the
> > time so he should remember as well. I think Barkley was there as well.
> >
> > What does the above quote say about Jones? It says that he is --
> >
> > a) viciously homophobic!
> > b) a cop-baiter!
> > c) libelous!
> > d) he has a conspiracy theory about _NLR_ that would make Lyndon LaRouche
> > blush!
> >
> > Yet this is the person that Michael has praised! This is the
> > Stalin-worshiper that Proyect has entered into an unprincipled
> > combination with!
> >
> > On to yesterday's post ...
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 07:37:16-0400 (EDT)
> > From: Gerald Levy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Progressive Economics <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: on the status of the pen-l list
> >
> > Michael wrote:
> >
> > > Let bygones be bygones.
> > > The real enemy resides elsewhere.
> >
> > You still don't get it, do you?
> >
> > Re Jones: Not only is he viciously homophobic, but he also routinely
> > calls others on the left "provocateurs", "counter-revolutionaries",
> > "agents of US imperialism", etc. without any proof whatsoever. He has even
> > -- on more than one occasion -- supported death threats against other
> > leftists who don't agree with him.
> >
> > Should we say: "Let bygones be bygones" to Jones? Not only would this
> > be seen as a defense of (verbal) gay-bashing, but we would also be saying
> > that cop-baiting and death threats are OK.
> >
> > Re Proyect: he *is* (part of) the real enemy! He is a member of management
> > who has threatened to seek to have other leftists fired and has even
> > contacted mgt. to get someone silenced and/or fired. He has also --
> > knowinglyly, falsely, and maliciously -- accused someone of being an FBI
> > agent.
> >
> > Does it matter at all if the reputation of a revolutionary is tainted
> > forever by this charge that he was an FBI agent? If we say "Let bygones be
> > bygones" to Proyect, we would be slapping this individual in the face
> > again. Does it matter at all that a so-called "Marxist" has *crossed class
> > lines* and _joined_ the real enemy by his actions?
> >
> > For Proyect, there is *NO* forgiving and forgetting. Moreover, it matters
> > not one bit whether his actions occurred on pen-l or elsewhere. It matters
> > not one bit whether he also writes posts which are not flames. What
> > should *only* matter to us is that he has become an enemy of the working
> > class -- a Benedict Arnold of the workers' movement.
> >
> > > I would like to see us accomplish something.
> >
> > How can we expect to accomplish anything unless we can take a stand
> > against homophobia, death threats, sexism, cop-baiting, anti-labor
> > activism, etc?
> >
> > Jerry
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA 95929
>
> Tel. 530-898-5321
> E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--
Rosser Jr, John Barkley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PEN-L:190] Re: principles
Rosser Jr, John Barkley Fri, 22 May 1998 16:22:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
