From: "James Michael Craven" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Clark College, Vancouver WA, USA
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:31:13 PST8PDT
Subject: [PEN-L:795] Re: Re: Re: Re: re Bhoddi vs Proyect
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > So the native Canadians get the land and do what? Are they going
> > to open casinos? Are they going to log, farm or mine? All those are
> > pretty depressed industries right now. Where are they going to get the
> > money to develop the land? Do you think the people they get the money
> > from are going to respect indigenous culture?
> >
> >
> > I think the last time I was playing the slots up in Connecticut, I
> > might have heard one of the waitresses wearing a bucksking minidress
> > saying something like "Welcome to the Mohegan Sun, victory for the working
> > class", but I'm not sure.
> >
Craven:
This is not debate or some exhancge of differing opinion. This is
virulent racism and I have seen it over and over. For Indians, the
above is quite analagous to talk about "money-grubbing Hebes" or
"Coloreds who need to get over slavery and get with the program" or
"bitches who are only good for the bedroom and the kitchen",; it is
ugly, has no place on pen-l.
R: I may be missing something, but this is not racism at all. On the
contrary, Bhoddi is suggesting that Indians are humans afterall - in
a world dominated by capital they may very well act just like the white
humans you seem to dislike so much.
C:
I am not interested in debating libertarians or right-wingers; how do
you debate tautologies or unsupported assertions, aummarily and
forcefully asserted as if the degree and force of assertion somehow
legitimates and gives evidence for that which is being asserted. I do
not lurk on or even visit libertarian/right-wiunger sites much less
debate or engage in provocations on them. When confronted with
right-wingers, especially those promoting racism, sexism,
imperialism, fascism etc with a smile or "polite" rhetoric and signed
off with "peace", I do respond and yes, sometimes not to my credit,
with some ugly invective (I am a work in progress)
R: Bhoddi has stated quite clearly that he is for markets and not
capitalism, which he defines, just as Braudel, as
monopoly control over markets. Do you propose monopoly
controls over what constitutes the "left"?
C:
But let's face it, there are some who just get some kind of charge
out of sidetracking substantive debates and exchanges, muddying the
waters, promoting factionalism and splits and frankly using "freedom
of speech" in the particular to promote the kinds of societies in
which there will be no freedom of speech in general.
R: Factionalism is inherent to the very politics that you and Proyect
advocate, for it is based on the notion that there are some
principles beyond dispute, which you know, so that any deviation
from those principles muct be seen
as factional. I mean do you think there are no factions within the
Indians themselves?
James M.S. Craven
> James Craven
> Dept. of Economics,Clark College
> 1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Vancouver, WA. 98663
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tel: (360) 992-2283 Fax: 992-2863
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards Indians; their land and
> property shall never be taken from them without their consent."
> (Northwest Ordinance, 1787, Ratified by Congress 1789)
>
> "...but this letter being unofficial and private, I may with safety give you a more
> extensive view of our policy respecting the Indians, that you may better comprehend
> the parts dealt to to you in detail through the official channel, and observing the
> system of which they make a part, conduct yourself in unison with it in cases
where
> you are obliged to act without instruction...When they withdraw themselves to the
> culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their
> extensive forests, and will be willing to pare them off from time to time in
>exchange
> for necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this disposition to exchange
> lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries which we have to spare
> and they want,we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and
> influencial individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these
> debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off
> by cession of lands...In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe and
> approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us as citizens
> of the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi.The former is certainly the
> termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course
> of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that
> our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to
> shut our hand to crush them..."
> (Classified Letter of President Thomas Jefferson ("libertarian"--for propertied white
> people) to William Henry Harrison, Feb. 27, 1803)
>
> *My Employer has no association with My Private and Protected Opinion*
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Craven
Dept. of Economics,Clark College
1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Vancouver, WA. 98663
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tel: (360) 992-2283 Fax: 992-2863
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards Indians; their land and
property shall never be taken from them without their consent."
(Northwest Ordinance, 1787, Ratified by Congress 1789)
"...but this letter being unofficial and private, I may with safety give you a more
extensive view of our policy respecting the Indians, that you may better comprehend
the parts dealt to to you in detail through the official channel, and observing the
system of which they make a part, conduct yourself in unison with it in cases where
you are obliged to act without instruction...When they withdraw themselves to the
culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their
extensive forests, and will be willing to pare them off from time to time in exchange
for necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this disposition to exchange
lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries which we have to spare
and they want,we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and
influencial individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these
debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off
by cession of lands...In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe and
approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us as citizens
of the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi.The former is certainly the
termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course
of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that
our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to
shut our hand to crush them..."
(Classified Letter of President Thomas Jefferson ("libertarian"--for propertied white
people) to William Henry Harrison, Feb. 27, 1803)
*My Employer has no association with My Private and Protected Opinion*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
