>> This discussion of “what is capitalism?,” it seems to me, has great
 relevance for any real left-green synthesis.   Most of the left is
 oblivious to the existence of postindustrial productive forces geared to
 qualitative development, and the fact that capitalism is absolutely
 incompatible with such postmaterial development.
*******
Do you mean post-technological? If not, then what does post-industrial mean?
Capitalism is a system of property and contract rights at it's core.
Capitalists have shown a rather insidious proclivity towards making sure
that technological innovations conform to a desired property and contract
scheme that allows them to accumulate lots of $$$$$$$$$$$ and legally avoid
paying for the pecuniary externalities imposed on other owners and
non-owners.


>> Real postindustrialism
 is not primarily about information and computers, but about human cultural
 development, and how this new role for creativity makes possible
 widespread substitution of human intelligence for materials and energy.
 It’s about what Martin Sklar called “disaccumulation” and what the
 industrial ecologists call “dematerialization”.  Only the industrial
 ecologists, and advocates of eco-capitalism, do not see that capitalism
 cannot by definition dematerialize the economy as a whole because it is
 based in quantitative accumulation.  Capitalism is based in material and
 monetary accumulation; in scarcity; and in cog-labour.


*********
Who reaps the benefit of that creativity is, again, a manifestation of the
dominant legal relations between owners and non-owners. Technology under
capitalist relations of production push at and beyond the ability of some
ecosystem's regenerative and resiliency capacities. As for the ability of
capitalism to dematerialize, see:

http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80901e/80901E08.htm especially the
appendix. Then come back and tell me that Alan Greenspan and all the other
high priests of capitalism have the slightest idea on how to achieve those
goals, let alone the desire.


>>I agree with the folks arguing that it is the commodity relationship
 (M-C-M, etc.) that is key, because qualitative development (or the
 regeneration of communities and ecosystems) can never be, for the system
 as a whole,  a by-product, a spin-off or a trickle-down of accumulation.
 The ecological “end-use” approach is essentially the socialist “use-value”
 approach.  The starting point is human and ecological need—and the
 redefinition of wealth.  Questions of the distribution of wealth must
 follow—and will follow—from that.  The focus of Jim and others on
 proletarianism and wage labour is very closely connected to this
 subordination of human development; today’s working classes must
 ultimately put an end to cog-labour, and make sure that even routine
 labour is truly developmental.

********

Decommodifying our lives is the great adventurestruggle. Democratic
determination of use values is the great project of the 21st century. At the
same time, a lot more material output of goods is gonna be needed to
alleviate the misery of hundreds of millions. So the relations of production
must be transformed totally.

>>I agree with Yoshie that support for ongoing struggles is
 essential, but
 developing a large social vision is essential.  In the name of diversity
 and difference, apparently feeling burned by its past association with
 vulgar Marxism, most of the left is retreating from the understanding of
 historical potentials that should be the left’s forte.  The left is
 largely clueless about the political-economic alternatives to capitalism,
 and for this reason its stale statism does not ring true with many in the
 social movements who are already working to create alternatives.   These
 alternatives—in every sector of the economy and society—are not simply
 ecotopian dreams.  The precondition for a real left-green synthesis is for
 the left to wake up to alternative forms of production geared to
 ecological community regeneration.

******

Many on the left know about the experiments of which you speak. By forms of
production, do you mean that in an engineering sense or is it similar to
relations of production as commonly used by lefties?


>>When the left can do this, it can be very effective in showing how
 eco-capitalism is a contradiction in terms.  But will also become aware
 that a narrow focus on the state will be insufficient, and even
 counterproductive, for creating regenerative wealth.  There needs to be
 new rules, and these new rules can institutionalize quite different
 processes than accumulation.
******
Apart from the whole gender bias issue built into the idea of rules, if you
are talking about the laws of property and contract under which ecologically
benign technologies and social services are delivered to citizens, then
you're talking about the state as enforcer of rules both in the making and
remaking sense.


  And in fact they would have to discourage
 accumulation.  Markets, driven by the profit-motive, today are
 destructive; but tomorrow, driven by social and ecological values and
 indicators, they might be something else.  Rather than poo-pooing
 environmentalist concerns with consumption (and therefore the CONTENT of
 production), the left should be raising the ante, and indicating the new
 forms of production and exchange (and community-based regulation) which
 can establish a new mode of

 Brian Milani
 Eco-Materials Project, Toronto
 Green Economics Website
 http://www.greeneconomics.net

*******
Democratic forums to determine use values and then works councils to
determine the technical details of production always sound good to me, as do
markets with different forms of ownership and governance; but they entail
"taking away" power from the current owners. Let's get on with it.

Ian

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