Interview with Francis Boyle, Professor of Law, University of Illinois
Subject: NO RUSH TO WAR!/O'Reilly Factor/FOX/13Sept2001
>
>
>
> SHOW: THE O'REILLY FACTOR (20:29)
>
>
> September 13, 2001 Thursday
>
>
> Transcript # 091303cb.256
>
> SECTION: News; Domestic
>
> LENGTH: 3973 words
>
> HEADLINE: America Unites
> How Should the U.S. Bring Terrorists to Justice?
>
> GUESTS: Sam Huessini, Francis Boyle
>
> BYLINE: Bill O'Reilly
>
> BODY:
> THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
> BE UPDATED.
>
> O'REILLY: While most Americans are united in their support of President
> Bush and the desire to bring Osama bin Laden and other terrorists to
> justice, there are some differing voices.
>
> Joining us now from Washington is Sam Husseini, the former spokesman for
> the Arab Anti -- American Anti-Discrimination Committee, and from Urbana,
> Illinois, is Francis Boyle, an international law professor at the
> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign..........
> ....
> O'REILLY: Cut his mike. All right, now, Mr. Boyle, Professor Boyle, let's
> have a little bit more of a rational discussion here. That was absurd.
>
> The United States now has to take action against certain segments in this
> world who we know have been harbouring people like Osama bin Laden. That's
> going to happen. How will you react to that?
>
> FRANCIS BOYLE, LAW PROFESSOR: Well, first I think you have to look at the
> law involved. Clearly what we have here, under United States domestic law
> and statutes, is an act of international terrorism that should be treated
> as such. It is not yet elevated to an act of war. For an act of war, we
> need proof that a foreign state actually ordered or launched an attack
upon
> the United States of America. So far, we do not yet have that evidence. We
> could...
>
> O'REILLY: All right, now why are you, why are you, why are you taking this
> position when you know forces have attacked the United States. Now, maybe
> they don't have a country, but they are forces. They have attacked the
> United States, all right? Without warning, without provocation. Civilian
> targets. They've done everything that an act of war does.
>
> So, I'm saying that because we live in a different world now, where
borders
> don't really matter, where terrorism is the weapon of choice, that you
> would declare war -- if I were President Bush, I would declare war on any
> hostile forces, notice those words, professor, hostile forces to the
United
> States. I would have a blanket declaration of war so I could go in and
kill
> those people. Would I be wrong?
>
> BOYLE: Well, Bill, so far you'll note Congress has been unwilling to
> declare war. And indeed, this matter is being debated right now. Right
now,
> it appears that what they are seeking is not a full declaration of war,
but
> only what we law professors call an imperfect declaration, which means a
> limited use of military force under the War Powers Resolution of 1973.
>
> Precisely for the problem that we don't know if any state was involved and
> we still do not know who was responsible for this undoubted terrorist
> attack upon the United States of America.
>
> O'REILLY: All right, but we have the secretary of state saying that Osama
> bin Laden now has been linked into and, you know, we don't have all the
> intelligence information, as President Bush said today. He's not going to
> give us, and he shouldn't, the people of America all the information that
> they have. But when the secretary of state gets up and says, look, we know
> this guy was involved to some extent, I believe him.
>
> And he's a wanted man, professor. He's been wanted for eight years. The
> Clinton administration didn't have the heart to get him and in the first
> few months the Bush administration didn't either. We now know, and you
just
> heard the FBI agent say that Afghanistan has been involved for years
> harbouring and training these kinds of people. Certainly, Afghanistan,
> Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, those five countries, certainly have been
hostile
> to the United States and given safe harbour to these terrorists. That's a
> fact.
>
> BOYLE: Well, let me point out, the secretary of state was very careful in
> the words he used. He said Osama bin Laden was a suspect. He did not
accuse
> him. And, again, under these circumstances...
>
> O'REILLY: No, he didn't use the word suspect. He used another word.
>
> BOYLE: The account I read in, just off the wire service, said suspect. But
> let me continue my point. Under these circumstances, where we have 5,000
> Americans dead and we could have many more Americans killed in a conflict,
> we have to be very careful, Congress and the American people and the
> president, in not to over-escalate the rhetoric, here.
>
> We have to look at this very rationally. This is a democracy. We have a
> right to see what the evidence is and proceed in a very slow and
deliberate
> manner.
>
> O'REILLY: No, we don't. We do not, as a republic, we don't have the right
> to see what the evidence is if the evidence is of a national security
> situation, as you know.
>
> Now, I'm trusting my government to do the right thing, here. I am
trusting.
> But I think it's beyond a doubt right now, beyond a reasonable doubt,
which
> is, as you know, a court of law standard, that there are at least five,
> North Korea you could put in to, six states in the world that have
> harboured continually these terrorists.
>
> Now, we know that this was a well-coordinated effort. Our initial
> intelligence shows that some of the people that have been arrested have
> ties to Osama bin Laden. We know, as you just heard the FBI agent say,
that
> the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center was tied in to a guy who knew
> bin Laden. So, bin Laden -- I agree with you, that you don't want to be a
> hothead. You don't want to overreact. You don't want to lob a missile at
> the pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan, which was terrible, and that was
the
> one good point, or fair point, that Mr. Husseini made, you don't want to
do
> that.
>
> But, on the other hand, professor, I think Americans are rightful, are
> right, to demand action against states that we know in the past have
> harboured these individuals and there's a warrant out for Osama bin
Laden's
> arrest. So, if he is in Afghanistan, I would give that government a couple
> of days to hand him over, and if they did not, I'd go in.
>
> BOYLE: Well, again. The American people are right. We need to see the
> evidence. I remember people saying a generation ago, during the Vietnam
> war, I trusted my government. And I think people of my generation found
out
> that that was wrong. We needed more evidence.
>
> O'REILLY: All right. Professor, let me stop you there, though. This is
> another point that Mr. Husseini tried to make. Just because the United
> States of America has made mistakes in the past, does not mean that we
> cannot defend ourselves now.
>
> This is a unique situation in history. We have now been attacked by forces
> without borders, OK? We've been attacked. And it hasn't been a military
> attack, it's been an attack on civilians. The reason, the sole reason a
> federal government exists is to protect the people of the United States.
> And as I said in my "Talking Points" memo, they haven't really done the
> job, for political reasons.
>
> But now's the time to correct those things. So, there's going to be a
> reckoning, Professor. You know it's going to happen. I know it's going to
> happen. And it's going to come down on Osama bin Laden first and maybe
some
> of these rouge states later. Will you support that action?
>
> BOYLE: Before I support a war that will jeopardize the lives of tens of
> thousands of our servicemen and women, I want to see the evidence that we
> are relying on to justify this. So far, I do not see it. I see
allegations.
> I see innuendo. I see winks and I see nods, but I do not see the evidence
> that you need under international law and the United States constitution
so
> far to go to war. Maybe that evidence will be there, but it is not there
> now.
>
> My recommendation to Congress is to slow down, let's see what develops and
> let's see what this evidence is before we knowingly go out and not only
> kill large numbers of people, perhaps in Afghanistan and other countries,
> but undoubtedly in our own armed forces.
>
> 58,000 men of my generation will killed in Vietnam because of
irresponsible
> behavior by the Johnson administration rushing that Tonkin Gulf resolution
> through Congress, exactly what we're seeing now. And we need to pull back
> and stop and think and ask the hard questions and demand to see the
> evidence first, before we march off to war.
>
> O'REILLY: All right, so it's not enough that people arrested in the
> bombings of the embassies in Africa testified in court that Osama bin
Laden
> was behind and financed and coordinated those bombings. That evidence is
> not enough for you?
>
> BOYLE: Well, Africa is a very is a very different story than what happened
> in the World Trade Center.
>
> O'REILLY: No, it's not. He's wanted, he's wanted in the United States for
> the bombings of those two embassies. Is that evidence enough for you,
> professor, for the United States to go in and get this man? Is it enough?
>
> BOYLE: That, that matter was treated and handled as an act of
international
> terrorism in accordance with the normal laws and procedures of the United
> States of America as a question of domestic and international law
> enforcement. And I am suggesting that is the way we need to proceed
here...
>
> O'REILLY: Well, wait. You're dodging the question professor.
>
> BOYLE: ... unless we have evidence that...
>
> O'REILLY: Wait, professor. Professor. This is a no spin zone. Hold it.
Hold
> it. Even out in Urbana Champagne, the no spin zone rules. You're dodging
> the question. There is an absolutely rock solid arrest warrant out for
this
> man. Evidence in court, testimony by people who did the bombings that this
> man was behind it. Is that enough evidence for you to have the United
> States go in and get him now? Is it enough?
>
> BOYLE: The United States has been attempting to secure his extradition
from
> Afghanistan. I support...
>
> O'REILLY: Yeah, that's long enough.
>
> BOYLE: I support that approach as international...
>
> O'REILLY: Come on already, I mean, eight years, we've been attempting to
> extradite this guy. Now's the time to tell the Afghans you've got 48 hours
> or 72 hours to turn him over. You don't turn him over, we're coming in and
> getting him. You try to stop us, and you're toast. Enough is enough,
> professor.
>
> BOYLE: That's vigilantism. It is not what the United States of America is
> supposed to stand for. We are supposed to stand...
>
> O'REILLY: No, what that is is protecting the country from terrorists who
> kill civilians.
>
> BOYLE: ... for rule of law.
>
> O'REILLY: It's not vigilantism.
>
> BOYLE: We are supposed to stand for rule of law, and that is clearly
> vigilantism. There is a Security Council, there is Congress, there are
> procedures and there are laws, and they are there to protect all of us
here
> in the United States as well as...
>
> O'REILLY: So, you're telling me...
>
> BOYLE: ... as well as our servicemen and women. Look, Bill, if we
> allegedly, as you put it, go in, you are not going in, I am not going in.
> It's going to be young men and women serving in our armed forces...
>
> O'REILLY: And that's their job. To protect us. But, professor, let me, you
> know, what you're saying is, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it. Hold it. Hold it.
> Hold it.
>
> B0YLE: ... with the constitution and the laws of the United States.
>
> O'REILLY: We're not violating any laws here, professor. No one is going to
> violate the law. There is going to be a state of war induced against
> states, states, terroristic states, who have attacked us. And what you're
> saying is, though, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that even
> though there is a legitimate warrant out for Osama bin Laden's arrest, and
> even though most civilized nations would honor that warrant and turn him
> over to us, extradite him to us, the vast majority of nations on earth
> would do that, you still are opposed for the United States to demand that
> the Taliban government arrest this man and turn him over? You are opposed
> to that?
>
> BOYLE: During the Gulf War, President Bush's father, who has far more
> experience that the current president Bush, got a Security Council
> resolution authorizing the United States of America to use force to expel
> Iraq from Kuwait. Second, President Bush's father got a War Powers
> Authorization Resolution from Congress that gave him the constitutional
> authority to use military force to enforce that Security Council
resolution.
>
> What I'm calling for here is the same adherence to international law and
> the United States constitution that the first President Bush adhered to in
> dealing with Iraq.
>
> O'REILLY: Well, you'll get that, professor. That's just a formality. There
> -- nobody on Capitol Hill right now, they're not going to -- there's no
> profile of courages up there anyway, usually. They're going to give
> President Bush what he wants. If he wants a War Powers Act, they're going
> to give it to him. He wants a declaration, they're going to give it to
him.
>
> BOYLE: Actually, they're arguing about it right now...
>
> O'REILLY: They're going to give it to him. But I'm not interested in that,
> because it's going to happen. It's going to happen.
>
> BOYLE: The reports -- no, the reports I read was that this President Bush
> initially asked for a blank check, and Congress balked because they had
> been suckered once before...
>
> O'REILLY: All right, I'm not -- speculation is not what I'm in -- all
> right, professor. I don't want to speculate. I'm just going to say in my
> opinion he's going to have the authority to go in and get Osama bin Laden
> and his pals, wherever they are. He will get that authority, whether it
> takes a day or a week, he'll get it. And once he gets it, now, that's what
> I want to talk about here. Once he gets it, are you and others like you
> going to say, oh, no, we shouldn't do this, even though we have proof of
> the man's -- masterminded the bombings in Africa and the Cole,testimony in
> Yemen, are you going to still say, even after the authority is granted by
> Congress, which it will be, no, don't do it, let Afghanistan handle him?
> Are you going to still do that, professor?
>
> BOYLE: Second, like his father, his father also got authorization from the
> United States, the United Nations Security Council under chapter seven of
> the United Nations charter...
>
> O'REILLY: Oh, you want to go to U.N. now? You want the U.N. involved now.
>
> BOYLE: Is exactly what his father did...
>
> O'REILLY: So what?
>
> BOYLE: And that's exactly right.
>
> O'REILLY: His father made a huge mistake by not taking out Sadam Hussein
> when he could of.
>
> BOYLE: His father adhered to the required procedures under the United
> States constitution and the United Nations charter that is a treaty and
the
> supreme law of our land. I expect the current President Bush to do exactly
> what his father did before he starts engaging in a massive military
> campaign in Iraq or against other countries...
>
> O'REILLY: All right, I don't know whether he's going to go -- I know he's
> not going to let the U.N. dictate. He might go for a consensus. He's
> already got it with Putin and all of our NATO allies, he's already go
that.
> Whether he goes -- I think it would be a mistake to let -- empowering the
> U.N. in this situation.
>
> BOYLE: Then why did his father do this?
>
> O'REILLY: I'm going -- we're going to wrap this up with this. I'm going to
> give my last summation and then you can give yours, I'll give you the last
> word on it.
>
> This is a fugitive we're dealing with here. He has now been tied in by
U.S.
> intelligence agencies, according to Attorney General Ashcroft and the
> secretary of state, tied into this horrendous bombing here in New York.
The
> United States must make a response to this, and I am agreeing with you in
a
> sense, it can't be a knee-jerk. It's got to be done in a methodical way.
>
> Congress will go along, they may debate it or whatever, but they will go
> along in either a War Powers, special War Powers Act or a declaration of
> war against forces hostile to the United States. Then they will go in and
> they will take him. This man you're looking at on the TV screen is a dead
> man. He should be a dead man. You don't do what he did and be allowed to
> walk around this earth.
>
> Now, I'm distressed, professor, by your reliance, reliance on the strict
> letter of propriety, when we've got 10,000 people laying in the street
> about 22 miles from me right now. I want deliberation. I want methodical
> discipline, but I also want action. We know who this guy is. We know the
> governments that are protecting him. We know the other rouge states that
> have terrorist camps there. They all have to be dealt with, in my opinion.
> I'll give you the last word.
>
> BOYLE: Sure, I agree with you, Bill. He is a fugitive from justice and
this
> should be handled as a matter as other fugitives from justice of
> international law enforcement. If indeed there is evidence that a foreign
> state orchestrated and ordered an attack against the United States then
> clearly that is an act of war that should be dealt with as such...
>
> O'REILLY: What about harbouring?
>
> BOYLE: Right now...
>
> O'REILLY: Is harbouring an act of war?
>
> BOYLE: In my opinion, no. And under the current circumstances, I don't see
> it.
>
> O'REILLY: All right, professor.
>
> BOYLE: I think there is a distinction here.
>
> O'REILLY: OK, all right, wrap it up, if you would.
>
> BOYLE: I agree -- I agree that the -- if we go to war in a hasty manner
> here, we could see thousands of U.S. military personnel being killed
> without proper authorization by Congress or by the United Nations Security
> Council.
>
> O'REILLY: OK.
>
> BOYLE: Our founding fathers decided that the most awesome decision we
would
> ever make would be to go to war, and we have to be very careful in making
> that decision.
>
> O'REILLY: All right, professor, I appreciate it very much. Thank you for
> your point of view.
>
> BOYLE: Thank you, Bill.
>
>
>
> >Francis A. Boyle
> >Law Building
> >504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
> >Champaign, IL 61820 USA
> >217-333-7954(voice)
> >217-244-1478(fax)
> ><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
Stephen F. Diamond
School of Law
Santa Clara University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
