--- Message Received ---
From: "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:31:43 -0800
Subject: [PEN-L:23257] RE: God
Good points below (Jim and Charles). It could be said that God exists is so far as it
is a projection of (hu)man (which puts a different twist on atheism then the simple
contention that it does not).
By the way, the original sin was eating of the tree of knowledge, which proved its own
punishment, as Adam and Eve sought to clothe their nakedness (ie sought possessions
because of this knowledge). God's expulsion of them from the Garden of Eden appears as
a final confirmation of this sin, something of a foregone conclusion given what they
had done.
The story is simple and very profound, once at one with nature, they were naked
(without possessions) but they broke with this, gained knoweldge and because of this
could no longer live in innocence, knowledge caused them to be ashamed at not having
clothes (possessions), knowing their nakedness was to know how to rectify it and begin
the labour to do so.
IT is an old story large parts taken from Babylonian/Summarian sources (Epic of
Gilgamesh which is also transformed into the story of Noah). Quite possibly both
stories reach back to the transition from hunting gathering to agriculture.
The snake is a low thing of the earth - thought to issue forth from the bowels of the
earth, while its yearly slothing of skin was seen as representing the change of
seasons which dictate the fertility of the soil. Thus this feature of the earth (its
fertility) tempted "man" with the fruit of the tree of knowledge - it was woman who
took to this (discovers of horticulture) from which man ate.
Of course a lot of other ideas are piled on top, but given the lack of science and
abstract nature of theology, not a bad story at all - God is truely the reflection of
humanity.
The problem with fundementalists is that they really don't try to understand what they
read.
JIM:
Charles writes:>Your view sounds like Marx's. Marx doesn't say God doesn't
exist, but that God is alienated man ( which I take to be humanity). And
directly to what you say, he says the basis of irreligious criticism is man
(sic) makes religion, religion doesn't make man. ( A feminist critique might
note that it is indeed men who make religion, not women)<
I have been influence by Marx, a lot. It's also Freud's view -- and
Feuerbach's -- that God is a human projection of our own inner images.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:07 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [PEN-L:23256] God
>
>
> God
> by Devine, James
> 26 February 2002 15:10 UTC
>
>
>
>
> JD: I wasn't raised as a Christian, but as I understand that
> faith, it's
> humanity that's the source of evil. (The Devil is most
> important to the
> fundamentalists, not the more sophisticated Christians.)
> "God" gave us free
> will and we mostly chose to be evil. In my view (as far as I
> can tell), we
> also created good (and God), along with the definition of
> good vs. evil.
>
>
> ^^^^^^^^
>
> CB: "Fundamentally" speaking, the Devil tempted Adam and Eve
> in the Garden of Eden. The Devil made them do it and the
> Devil "do" exist.
>
> But consistent with what you say, the first act of free will,
> independent of God, is the original sin , in this mythology.
> The Devil seduced them to use free will.
>
> But then the Devil, the Ruler of the World and Earthliness ,
> is also sort of the moving force for materialism, and against
> idealism and religion.
>
> So, then "fundamentally", we materialists and free thinkers
> are the Devil's children
>
> Interestingly with regards to your "good and evil"comment,
> the forbidden fruit was from the tree of the knowledge of
> good and evil. I interpret this myth to mean , paradoxically,
> that the original sin resulted in the origin of morality (
> "knowledge of good and evil"). This is suggestive as perhaps
> a view through the glass of ancient mythology darkly of the
> origin of homo sapiens in the origin of culture or symbolling
> in the form of , for example, the distinction between good
> and evil, between do's and don'ts.
>
>
> Your view sounds like Marx's. Marx doesn't say God doesn't
> exist, but that God is alienated man ( which I take to be
> humanity). And directly to what you say, he says the basis of
> irreligious criticism is man (sic) makes religion, religion
> doesn't make man. ( A feminist critique might note that it is
> indeed men who make religion, not women)
>
Greg Schofield
Perth Australia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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