[was RE: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems] Note that one of the things that right-wingers (such as Bush, Schwartzenegger) like to do is to appear environmentalist by promising hydrogen power in the future while not doing anything substantive to promote hydrogen. Hydrogen is one of these fuels where mere research isn't enough. You need to have an infrastructure of pipes, refineries, tanks, and fueling stations -- or else the vehicles are pretty useless. Without the vehicles being successful and in demand, no private business will invest in the infrastructure. There's a vicious circle, so that a big public investment is needed. But the right-wingers want to only invest in research (if that).
------------------------ Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ballard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:15 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems > > > Hydrogen is useful because it is not a carbon based > fuel. Global warming and other problems associated > with air/water/Earth pollution can be dealt with in > real substatial ways, if humans get wise and organise > ways to use fuels which don't involve burning carbon > based fuels for energy. I doubt that this can be done > under capitalism before it is too late i.e. we've > drunk far too much of the carbon based kool-aide our > fearless leaders are selling us now. > > Generating hydrogen from nuclear fission plants is a > stupid idea because of the old problems associated > with radioactive waste. One might expect this from > capitalist politicians. > > As Shane has indicated, there are other, safer ways to > obtain hydrogen. It is not useful for us to continue > to poison the Earth. But production for use and need > is not what 'the economy' is all about under the > dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Capitalists who own > shares in the carbon based fuel industry will always > try to convince you that converting to non carbon > based fuels is utopian. It's the same argument they > use against socialism i.e. TINA. > > Regards, > Mike B) > > > > > --- Eugene Coyle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Peter Camejo put forward a number of progessive > > proposals, more > > important by far than anything put forward by anyone > > else. > > > > I am repeatedly surprised by the fascination > > many environmentalists > > have with the wonderful future world of hydrogen. > > Let's see, we build > > power plants to generate electricity to extract > > hydrogren, then ship, by > > pipe or other means the hydrogen to someplace else > > to make electricity? > > And so we end up with less energy than we started > > with. Why is this good? > > > > Gene Coyle > > > > Shane Mage wrote: > > > > > I wouldn't take issue with the contempt displayed > > for the > > > California electorate, the "Lib-Dems," and > > Schwarzenegger > > > personally. But. The one important progressive > > proposal > > > to emerge from the entire recall circus came > > from... > > > Schwarzenegger! He promised a program to provide > > > hydrogen refueling facilities *every twenty miles* > > along > > > California's major highways by 2010. How > > important this > > > idea is was recognized by the NYTIMES editorially > > with > > > the adjectives "unrealistic" and "utopian." > > > > > > Of course, this may turn out to be campaign > > verbiage. But > > > I did have an experience that reflects favorably > > on > > > Schwarzenegger. In May 2001 I served on the jury > > in > > > a lengthy damage trial against GM for the death of > > a > > > husband in an SUV rollover. He was gruesomely > > crushed > > > when the roof collapsed on his head. GM claimed > > that > > > its design was not defective because reinforcing > > the > > > supporting columns would do nothing for safety. > > We > > > found against GM. On the next day I read in the > > > Financial Times an article reporting that before > > > Schwarzenegger agreed to buy a Hummer he had > > > insisted that GM include exactly the reinforcement > > > that had been at issue in our trial! > > > > > > Shane Mage > > > > > > "Thunderbolt steers all > > > things." > > > > > > Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Pensters, > > >> > > >> My view from down here and from having known > > people in > > >> the rank & file voting public of California is > > that > > >> they voted for Arnie because he promised them > > simple, > > >> honest good governance and a 'strong' government. > > The > > >> government under Davis was seen as weak, which is > > why > > >> so many people got screwed (the thinking goes) > > during > > >> the 'energy crisis" (fix). > > >> > > >> The problem with the voting public is that > > they're, > > >> for the most part, a bunch of ignorant fools who, > > like > > >> the kool-aide drinkers of Jonestown, are looking > > for > > >> an honest guy to lead them to the simple life > > away > > >> from the slimy, weak polytricksters, like Davis. > > >> > > >> The ground for this kind of debacle is fertilized > > on a > > >> daily basis by mealy-mouthed liberals who won't > > stand > > >> up for what they believe--mostly because the DP > > is in > > >> the hands of a gang of bureaucrats beholden to > > various > > >> sections of the ruling class. These politicians > > are > > >> satisfied with playing the role of safety valve > > during > > >> the toboggan ride to the bottom which Capital and > > the > > >> Repugs are bound and determined to take the rest > > of > > >> us. They don't tell their constituencies that > > they're > > >> being ripped off royally. They tell them that > > >> businessmen and the 'free-market' can save the > > day, if > > >> the voters just choose to go with them on their > > nice > > >> toboggan ride with cushions, instead of on the > > 'mean > > >> old' Repugs' sled. > > >> > > >> A lot of people see through this > > 'propaganda'--it's > > >> all phoney--remember what Bobby D told you? But, > > >> because the major pollies in the DP, which is the > > only > > >> voice given credibility as an opposition by the > > >> corporate and State owned media ("Camejo...who's > > he?" > > >> Joe Shit the ragman asks as he quaffs his Bud and > > >> reads the sports section at the short bar) don't > > even > > >> begin to educate their constituency (because > > they're > > >> already bought and paid for as safety valves) the > > >> voters who vote in quantity choose Arnie because > > Arnie > > >> is better looking and he's like 'cool' baby. > > >> > > >> Best to all, > > >> Mike B) > > >> > > >> > > >> --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> > > >>> obviously, Cooper doesn't like Camejo, for > > whatever > > >>> reason. I thought, however, that one of MC's > > points > > >>> was that the progressive wing and > > ethnic-minority > > >>> grassroots of the DP (which are not the object > > of > > >>> MC's derision here) sat out because Gray Davis > > was > > >>> so bad. And most of them -- and MC, I'd guess > > -- are > > >>> wedded to the lesser of two weevils logic which > > says > > >>> if you're not voting for Ah-nold or Bustamente, > > you > > >>> might as well vote for Gary Coleman or Mary > > Carey or > > >>> Larry Flynt. > > >>> > > >>> Davis' explanation -- right white nativist > > >>> anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows > > -- is > > >>> true, but only part of the story. It's not only > > who > > >>> voted for der Gropenfuehrer but also who didn't > > vote > > >> > > >> > for Davis, or Bustamente. There were also a > > lot of > > >> > > >>> people who voted for Mr. Universe for reasons > > >>> besides those highlighted by Davis. > > >>> > > >>> btw, MC's article is from the curent L.A. > > WEEKLY. > > >>> Jim > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Doug Henwood > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> Sent: Sun 10/12/2003 2:48 PM > > >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> Cc: > > >>> Subject: Re: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray > > demise of > > >>> the Lib-Dems > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> As Eudora told me, the word "Camejo" was > > not found > > >>> in this piece. > > >>> Why, if this was a not-unadmirable > > uprising, as > > >>> Marc Cooper argues, > > >>> was there not more support for him (or > > Huffington)? > > >>> Mike Davis' > > >>> explanation - that it was a right white > > nativist > > >>> anti-immigrant > > >>> uprising fueled by talk shows - seems > > more > > >>> compelling, given the > > >>> demographics of the vote. Arnie's vote > > was highest > > >>> in the above-$75k > > >>> households. > > >>> > > >>> Doug > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> ===== > > >> > > > ***************************************************************** > > >> "A man's maturity consists in finding once again > > the seriousness he had > > >> as a child at play." > > >> > > >> Heraclitus, Greek philosopher (500 B.C.) > > >> > > >> http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > >> > > >> __________________________________ > > >> Do you Yahoo!? > > >> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product > > search > > >> http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > ===== > ***************************************************************** > "A man's maturity consists in finding once again the > seriousness he had > as a child at play." > > Heraclitus, Greek philosopher (500 B.C.) > > http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com >
